OST-034: Noir Crowning

[oldeskewltoy]

- A package gets dropped at my door.......




No one has told me they sent me anything.....


I open up the box.... it's a head, that much is pretty obvious (size, mass)... but it is well disguised





I manage to remove the tape and get most of the shirts removed... one thing is certain... its 20V....



the heads chambers have been taped over... but a view @ the ports reveal.....



We have a Blacktop head... I've been talking with a client for about 6 weeks concerning his blacktop head... he never did tell me it was on the way...


OST-034: Noir Crowning aka Blacktop




More to come......

[101gze]

Wowzers!!! no one has ever, ever.....ever....seen one of these before. But alas, you should have done some research on the internets before embarking on such a misadventure.
For, you see, this wise one oldeskewltoy has bleated forever that this composition of valves is pointless and that the 16V> ALL. uhuh.. so, you should pack it back in the box and send it back to the cool aid drinker that sent it...

WaIt WoT?

So, since you have again spammed your usual haunts with your self indulged grandeur, this is your chance to prove beyond all doubt what the "blacktop" cylinder head and your self proclaimed brilliance is, OR is NOT capable of.

To do this, of course you will show:

Before and after flow figures at 10" and 28" IN & EX and this is to be shown on a legitimate flow bench, not your vacuum cleaner mockup thingerjiggamy.

Because your so articulate with your details, you should be able to not only show pics of it on the LEGITIMATE bench, you will be able to show video too.

You are expected to show this info because:
1/ You perpetually promote your SkIlLZ on the internet, making unfounded claims and its time to stop.
2/ You are taking GOOD money from people to "supposedly" improve their cylinder head.
3/ You have been asked for this info before and shown nothing in the way of legitimate data.
4/ It is your responsibility as a "cylinder head specialist/developer/qualified mechanical engineer" to show the data requested as due diligence in order to separate yourself from the former and not that of a snake oil salesman.

We would ALL expect that since it has taken you 20 years to get your mitts on one of these, you will happily oblige in forensically analysing its facets deviation and idiosyncrasies.

I think I speak for all interested in saying that we are happy for Loynings to flow it if thats your choice but it has to be genuine data recording and not some numbers on a page, and if loynings carry out machining work on your behalf, make sure you state such.

Oh...and by all means, PLEASE PLEASE invite your client to post here...or the other threads on other forums you started, it would be great to hear from them.

Well, thats it then...you wanted attention, were attending.

Get to it.

[oldeskewltoy]

so once unwrapped and set up on the bench.... inspection begins....

Over all the casting quality has gotten much better. Although there still is port-bowl-seat shift, the shift amount - at least in this head, is minimal.

There is one REALLY, and I mean REALLY odd ball bit........ the 3 intake valve seats have NO semblance of an even 3 angle...




Looking into the Blacktop service manual the 3 angles are suppose to be 30, 45, 60. Well the throat cut - 60 degree cut, in essence is the bowl angle and so the back of the port (highest pressure area) has no effective throat cut, while if you look carefully, the throat cut at the short radius is so small, it also becomes more or less insufficient... and the the throat cut between the two... is nothing short of an extreme change - from a width @ the back of the port of almost 5mm, to the width at the short radius of the port of less than 1mm.


I'll been inquiring with a few people as to the best way to address this....

One thing is certain - the factory put a lot more effort in to making the bowls and seats as smooth a transition as the factory could do... the bowl machining marks you see are not by me... those are all factory machining


Adding some more info....

The heads thickness measure.....



My dial caliper is likely off by .001"


and getting a chamber volume




and it is very close to SamQ's 37.8cc measurement.... I'm closer to 38cc





Further inspection......



shows a few issues on the exhaust side... look @ those casting marks.... as they travel from the bowl to the port. Also the small "step" in the machining/casting hurts flow, especially at lower lifts.




More to come........

[trdee]

Wowzers!!! no one has ever, ever.....ever....seen one of these before. But alas, you should have done some research on the internets before embarking on such a misadventure.
For, you see, this wise one oldeskewltoy has bleated forever that this composition of valves is pointless and that the 16V> ALL. uhuh.. so, you should pack it back in the box and send it back to the cool aid drinker that sent it...

WaIt WoT?

So, since you have again spammed your usual haunts with your self indulged grandeur, this is your chance to prove beyond all doubt what the "blacktop" cylinder head and your self proclaimed brilliance is, OR is NOT capable of.

To do this, of course you will show:

Before and after flow figures at 10" and 28" IN & EX and this is to be shown on a legitimate flow bench, not your vacuum cleaner mockup thingerjiggamy.

Because your so articulate with your details, you should be able to not only show pics of it on the LEGITIMATE bench, you will be able to show video too.

You are expected to show this info because:
1/ You perpetually promote your SkIlLZ on the internet, making unfounded claims and its time to stop.
2/ You are taking GOOD money from people to "supposedly" improve their cylinder head.
3/ You have been asked for this info before and shown nothing in the way of legitimate data.
4/ It is your responsibility as a "cylinder head specialist/developer/qualified mechanical engineer" to show the data requested as due diligence in order to separate yourself from the former and not that of a snake oil salesman.

We would ALL expect that since it has taken you 20 years to get your mitts on one of these, you will happily oblige in forensically analysing its facets deviation and idiosyncrasies.

I think I speak for all interested in saying that we are happy for Loynings to flow it if thats your choice but it has to be genuine data recording and not some numbers on a page, and if loynings carry out machining work on your behalf, make sure you state such.

Oh...and by all means, PLEASE PLEASE invite your client to post here...or the other threads on other forums you started, it would be great to hear from them.

Well, thats it then...you wanted attention, were attending.

Get to it.

Whilst you don't need to be that rude about it, I would also be interested in seeing the above

[oldeskewltoy]

There is one REALLY, and I mean REALLY odd ball bit........ the 3 intake valve seats have NO semblance of an even 3 angle...

http://ost.ebeans.ch/albums/userpics...ut_offset2.jpg


I'll been inquiring with a few people as to the best way to address this....

One thing is certain - the factory put a lot more effort in to making the bowls and seats as smooth a transition as the factory could do... the bowl machining marks you see are not by me... those are all factory machining

I've spoken with a few people concerning the oddly shaped seats, Although oddly shaped, the back cut will aid filling, and so it should remain.... and it shall





I begin on #4, since the bowls already merge pretty well with the seats, my biggest task is a to "build" a short radius, to minimize the intake guides, and guide bosses, and to gently straighten port/bowl mismatches.



#4 is on the left... you can also see where I've done some mild blending, in the chamber, of the factory machining marks.




And to the exhaust on #4(left).... I seem to remember the info "out there" saying the Blacktop had 35mm exhaust port outlets.... I measured these, they come in around 33.6 ish mm.



The ported one is about 33.75mm..... besides the re-taper, I've also "rebuilt" the shape of the guide bosses to minimize their effect on flow past them. I've also added a minor radius to the exhaust guides to further minimize flow disturbances

The view from the chambers...




With #4 mostly finished(right)... #3 has been cleaned, and #2(left) is still a bit "carbon coated". As I did with the SR20 head*, I'll be doing with this one. I'll be mounting this on the flowbench a bit later this week so that I can test the 3 chambers/sets of ports all on the same day, and under the same conditions. This will allow me to quantify the port work.


more to come.....


* - As an experiment... I did some port work on a damaged SR20 head. One cylinder/chamber/set of ports were left untouched, and I did 2 different porting "experiments" on 2 of the other cylinders/chambers/sets of ports on the SR20, then put the head on my bench and tested all 3 the same day to minimize discrepancies.

[101gze]

* - As an experiment... I did some port work on a damaged SR20 head. One cylinder/chamber/set of ports were left untouched, and I did 2 different porting "experiments" on 2 of the other cylinders/chambers/sets of ports on the SR20, then put the head on my bench and tested all 3 the same day to minimize discrepancies.

Why did you post this little tid bit which adds absolutely no relevance, authority or sense to the discussion,on this forum post only and not the other multitude of posts you have created?
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=O...NOPBmwXYk73IAg

It was put to you to take this head to a 3rd party for flowing as you have been previously found guilty of bloviating and making ludicrous claims:-
"Quote":
Time spent on machining the block of all its casting flash, removing excess material and smoothing the interior walls of the block so it sheads oil quicker(less oil stuck to the walls) reinforcing the block to adequately support the crank @rpm levels @ or near 14,000. Now add the time in to properly port the head, to install oversized valves and seats, to then mount this head on a flow bench and to "tune" the port flows to be within 1% of each other

As to which engine has more potential(N/A)... the smallport with $15k-$20k invested in one engine will make about 260-270 hp @ the crank. the highest power Blacktop I know of is this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026 it made about 250, but it needed a lot more stroke to get to 250. The Atlantic smallport 16V with the extra stroke makes about 270-290 hp.

16V formula Atlantic engines are the known N/A power kings for 4AG engines

Given this, one could not be blamed for thinking you may "bloviate" any reading your home made vacuum cleaner shows, therefor, any findings you show really are pointless.

If I didnt know better, I could almost say in advance that your "portwork" as you call it, just might show an improvement in flow over what you haven't touched

That said, it will be interesting to see the tool you conjure to actuate the valves during flowing.

[RAAAH23]

Why did you post this little tid bit which adds absolutely no relevance, authority or sense to the discussion,on this forum post only and not the other multitude of posts you have created?
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=O...NOPBmwXYk73IAg

It was put to you to take this head to a 3rd party for flowing as you have been previously found guilty of bloviating and making ludicrous claims:-
"Quote":
Time spent on machining the block of all its casting flash, removing excess material and smoothing the interior walls of the block so it sheads oil quicker(less oil stuck to the walls) reinforcing the block to adequately support the crank @rpm levels @ or near 14,000. Now add the time in to properly port the head, to install oversized valves and seats, to then mount this head on a flow bench and to "tune" the port flows to be within 1% of each other

As to which engine has more potential(N/A)... the smallport with $15k-$20k invested in one engine will make about 260-270 hp @ the crank. the highest power Blacktop I know of is this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026 it made about 250, but it needed a lot more stroke to get to 250. The Atlantic smallport 16V with the extra stroke makes about 270-290 hp.

16V formula Atlantic engines are the known N/A power kings for 4AG engines

Given this, one could not be blamed for thinking you may "bloviate" any reading your home made vacuum cleaner shows, therefor, any findings you show really are pointless.

If I didnt know better, I could almost say in advance that your "portwork" as you call it, just might show an improvement in flow over what you haven't touched

That said, it will be interesting to see the tool you conjure to actuate the valves during flowing.

Jesus Christ you're a fuckwit.

[oldeskewltoy]

That said, it will be interesting to see the tool you conjure to actuate the valves during flowing.

thank you for your contribution....






additionally.... I've made a casting of a port before... and after....




it will help me see the "positive" of my porting/removal. Kinda like these....





more to come........

[ToyTA22]

Jesus Christ you're a fuckwit.

I agree with you RAAAH23.
Don't see 101gze putting any information up to validate his comments or negativity.

[ToyTA22]

Why did you post this little tid bit which adds absolutely no relevance, authority or sense to the discussion,on this forum post only and not the other multitude of posts you have created?
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=O...NOPBmwXYk73IAg

It was put to you to take this head to a 3rd party for flowing as you have been previously found guilty of bloviating and making ludicrous claims:-
"Quote":
Time spent on machining the block of all its casting flash, removing excess material and smoothing the interior walls of the block so it sheads oil quicker(less oil stuck to the walls) reinforcing the block to adequately support the crank @rpm levels @ or near 14,000. Now add the time in to properly port the head, to install oversized valves and seats, to then mount this head on a flow bench and to "tune" the port flows to be within 1% of each other

As to which engine has more potential(N/A)... the smallport with $15k-$20k invested in one engine will make about 260-270 hp @ the crank. the highest power Blacktop I know of is this one viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1026 it made about 250, but it needed a lot more stroke to get to 250. The Atlantic smallport 16V with the extra stroke makes about 270-290 hp.

16V formula Atlantic engines are the known N/A power kings for 4AG engines

Given this, one could not be blamed for thinking you may "bloviate" any reading your home made vacuum cleaner shows, therefor, any findings you show really are pointless.

If I didnt know better, I could almost say in advance that your "portwork" as you call it, just might show an improvement in flow over what you haven't touched

That said, it will be interesting to see the tool you conjure to actuate the valves during flowing.

I have a question for you 101gze. How do you know whether oldskewltoy has not had his flow bench calibrated via pretested calibration plates/restrictors, which anyone who is using a as you call "home made vacuum cleaner" should do before comparing to other readings. Besides the fact all flowbenchs can show variations in readings due to many factors. Used more so for comparison of before and after figures when modifying porting and/or chambers, particularly around half lift, since a valve passes this cycle twice.

[trdee]

everyone needs to tone things down a bit. no more personal attacks please. asking questions and wanting to see verification is fair enough, but no need to be insulting. to either party

play nice gents.

[101gze]

Jesus Christ you're a fuckwit.

Your quite right. I'am a fuckwit. But as this is your only contribution to such threads, what does that actually make you? Jesus Christ? Now that we both know that I'am a fuckwit, what now? Thank you for your input. Its been invaluable.

I have a question for you 101gze. How do you know whether oldskewltoy has not had his flow bench calibrated via pretested calibration plates/restrictors, which anyone who is using a as you call "home made vacuum cleaner" should do before comparing to other readings. Besides the fact all flowbenchs can show variations in readings due to many factors. Used more so for comparison of before and after figures when modifying porting and/or chambers, particularly around half lift, since a valve passes this cycle twice.

Thats a very good and well worded question ToyTA22. Unfortunately, you are asking me the same question I ponder....which has been my point all along. You should, for all intents and purposes, aim this question at the OP, not I.

My problem is, that as you state "all flowbenchs can show variations in readings due to many factors", yes as can dyno's. So whats the point of either?
I simply asked the op to show independent flow bench data as I previously posted, he is accustomed to talking shit. i.e 14000 rpm 4AG's.

You also stated:
I agree with you RAAAH23.
Don't see 101gze putting any information up to validate his comments or negativity.


Iam not being negative, Iam being critical. If you think that my commentary on this blokes posts is based on nothingness, so be it. It does not matter what I have, it only matters what the FACTS are...just ask the OP

Qualified engine re conditioners spend a great deal of money to maintain and operate expensive machinery in order to give their clients quality results.
As such, without data compiled from such individuals and their machinery such as his hallowed Loynings, or a Superflo, or any other industry standard flow bench,his own personal findings, are just that, in which I have said will undoubtedly show favorably towards his "work and as such, mean....Jack.

Seriously, comments like this: I've spoken with a few people concerning the oddly shaped seats, Although oddly shaped, the back cut will aid filling, and so it should remain.... and it shall

Well, that settles it then, he spoke to people...and that is all there is to it. Your asking me for evidence with claims like this?? would you like to sip some cool aid with me? more unfounded shit.
Now...back to the discussion...

Dan, did your "client" supply the valves with the head?

[oldeskewltoy]

Dan, did your "client" supply the valves with the head?

my client sent me 4... of the 5 valves - all the intakes, and one exhaust - bust my balls all you want, I'm always at the "mercy" of my client. I have a silvertop head, so after comparing the exhaust valves and finding them to be the same valve head, and similar stem, I used a silvertop exhaust valve in the above chamber volume check. So... unless my client sends me the 2nd exhaust valve, I'll be using a silvertop valve on the exhaust for the test.

As to the conversation on an independent flowbench... **IF** you persuade my client to spend hundreds of dollars more, I have no problem getting my work independently verified... Does anyone want to pay the extra for my client?

My bench did come with a calibration plate, and it gets used often. I've used it to adjust for 82mm, 84mm, and 86mm bore adapters.

[oldeskewltoy]

my client sent me 4... of the 5 valves - all the intakes, and one exhaust - bust my balls all you want, I'm always at the "mercy" of my client. I have a silvertop head, so after comparing the exhaust valves and finding them to be the same valve head, and similar stem, I used a silvertop exhaust valve in the above chamber volume check. So... unless my client sends me the 2nd exhaust valve, I'll be using a silvertop valve on the exhaust for the test.

[oldeskewltoy]

I got a request........




More to come....