MA61 -> NA 7MGTE. Swap in NA exhaust. Use GTE ECU?

[patrickleslie]

*EDIT Old Title: 7M -> MA61 in SA. What will the Statement Of Requirements be? (MR620 Form Reply)

Does anyone have experience dealing with DPTI for putting a 7MGE into an MA61?

I have access to a currently running 7MGTE (which means bonus better block and running gear) with loom, ecu, etc everything I will need. Over the phone they said that a 7MGE is 'an approved swap' despite being an increase in capacity (whatever that means) and that the 7MGTE is not and would most likely require engineering as it is an increase in capacity but also turbo into what was never a turbo car. Then they say that it will be ok to use a GTE block as long as the build is NA at the time of assessment and that will be ok for registration.

I now need to submit a MR620 and they can't/won't tell me anything more over the phone until I do.

Yes, I know an NA GTE will not necessarily be the best but relatively it will still be mountains better than the 5ME, and it will be good to have the GTE bottom end so Turbo is an easy option later rather than having to do the whole job again on a 7MGE and potentially have to put a new GTE engine number on the rego anyway! Right now I am more focused on getting the GTE engine number onto the rego papers with as little engineering (and therefore extra $$$) as possible as this keeps all options open down the track. If this means making it NA, so be it. Besides, I don't neccessarily want/need a turbo car right now, it still has to be able to be driven by my girlfriend who is still in the early stages of her license for the next few years and can't drive turbo cars.

To make a 7MGTE run (at all) as an NA engine I just need 7MGE exhaust manifold...and 7MGE Ecu? Or would it run ok off the 7MGTE Ecu as it would never see boost? AFAIK everything else on the engines is the same or close enough, but I still need to do a bit more research on this.

I am ready to submit a MR620 Application To Modify for an NA 7M with a GTE block, what can I expect as a reply Statement Of Requirements? Has anyone put a 7MGE or 7MGTE into their MA61 in SA before, and got it on the rego papers? Did you have any trouble with the department? What engineering was involved, if any? Got any further tips or hints about the swap?

Thanks!

[patrickleslie]

It seems I've posted this in the conversion sub-category, my bad, I was reading through this section for answers at the time and put my thread here by mistake! Mods please move the thread to the general tech section, thanks

[Sammich]

moved


10char

[Javal]

Hi Patrick,

I trust you've read my writeup on AE86DC: http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/fo...572#post949572

The short answer is that it will vary case to case, at the discretion of whichever DPTI staff member goes over your application.

As far as dealing with the DPTI is concerned, putting a GE head on a GTE block may not be a great idea. If you modify the engine in any way that affects how it runs (like, a lower comp bottom end or a head with different cams, moving from distributor based to individual coil ignition etc) and thus change its' emissions performance, there is a very strong likelihood that they'll ask you to carry out an emissions test, which as i'm sure you know, the less testing you have to do, the better.

Even if you get it through with a GTE bottom end and a GE top end, you'll have to jump through all the hoops again when you go turbo if you want to keep it legal.

Personally, i'd be going straight for the 7MGTE as well as listing brake, suspension, wheel and tyre upgrades so you can get those all approved as well. Keep in mind any suspension modifications have to maintain 2/3 of the original travel from rest to full bump and the DPTI may directly or indirectly limit your maximum wheel offset.

[patrickleslie]

Im glad you piped in Javal, actually that thread was one for the first that popped up in google.

Even if you get it through with a GTE bottom end and a GE top end, you'll have to jump through all the hoops again when you go turbo if you want to keep it legal.

I am aware of this but I figure the hoops will be less the second time round as it will just be the added turbo, rather than an engine swap and a capacity increase and a turbo all at once. Like I said, I don't really want/need a turbo car right now so perhaps it would just be better to do a complete 7MGE in the first instance anyway...hmmmm choices choices choices

Emissions testing ... This is so people can't just drive their blown chev big block torana in to a workshop which barely squeaks past emissions at idle and then the second you touch the throttle, it dumps an entire litre of fuel in, blows fuel straight out the exhaust, hydrocarbon readings go through the roof and all the whales die. So she has to run sweet under all circumstances, so 8:1 AFR's at cruise aren't going to cut it.
If you build a 4AGTE, get it tuned really well on the dyno for all kinds loads, not just cruise / power / decel. Anyway. Gas analyzer gets hooked up. Engineer goes for a drive on a racetrack / air strip. If the readings are good, you're done.

Or just face up to the potential emissions test, do it properly, and deal with it

[Javal]

Im glad you piped in Javal, actually that thread was one for the first that popped up in google.


I am aware of this but I figure the hoops will be less the second time round as it will just be the added turbo, rather than an engine swap and a capacity increase and a turbo all at once. Like I said, I don't really want/need a turbo car right now so perhaps it would just be better to do a complete 7MGE in the first instance anyway...hmmmm choices choices choices

I think you'll have to speak to an engineer to truly map out the best course of action, but it all depends where you want to end up with the car.

If you want to end up with anything more than a standard 7MGTE, (std turbo / ecu / totally unmodified) it will HAVE to go through emissions testing. So, if you want to do it in two stages (7MGE then 7MGTE) then it makes sense to minimize the testing required.

If you go through the process the first time complying a standard 7MGE / suspension / brakes / wheels, you may have to do brake and handling tests but probably not a torsional rigidity test or emissions test. Once you drop in a warmed over 7MGTE (already having all the supporting mods in place and complied from your first round of modification) you should only really have to do an emissions test and maybe a torsional rigidity test.

Of course it makes more sense to do it all at once, but that probably isn't a practical option.

Really I think you should have a consult with an engineer. If you're located anywhere down South, I can highly recommend Josh Smith from Autest. Even if you're not located near him, he's still definitely worth a call.

[MA61 Turbo A]

Hello,

I have done a 7mgte into ma61 before here in Adelaide, i didnt have to engineer it for rego. Infact back then they didnt even do a eng no check. I can help you if you want.

Cheers

Brad.

[patrickleslie]

Hey thanks for the offer Brad, I think i'll be ok until I inevitably get stuck with some pita wiring problem and then i'll PM you!

Doing what Javal said, I did ring some engineers around town and they all said pretty much the same thing; "We can make anything legal, but it will cost money and you really need an MR620 reply before we get started." The quoted baseline engineering costs I got could double or triple the cost of the conversion and that would mean putting it off for a bit more time while I get some more money together. I don't want to have this as a stop-start project over a year or five while waiting for cash, tests, and parts in the mail. I would rather keep the 5ME on the road for as long as possible, get everything together beforehand and do the swap in one fell swoop.

The Vehicle Standards guy said I can submit multiple MR620s if I like so I'm just going for the ideal situation with the first one, an NA 7MGTE with no extra changes to the car other than the ones already done to suspension. Pending the Statement Of Requirements I will either do it as is, or submit a new MR620 with watered down conversion plans (IE stock 7MGE, maybe some brake changes etc)

Now I'm just waiting on a reply...

[patrickleslie]

OK fellas, I got a reply today.

Keep emissions, stay within track, blah blah etc etc
300x22 Discs up front with appropriate master cylinder and brake bias, which I wanted to do anyway....and that's it!

No engineering tests, no extra mods, no nothing. Plug and play

Best case scenario. Needless to say I'm very excited about this project now

[patrickleslie]

To go into the MA61 I have a cheapish 7MGTE which I know the history of. I haven't bought it yet. It's one with the yellow plug ECU (pre-89?).
Can I run it NA on the stock turbo ECU?

In theory all I would have to do is swap the GTE exhaust manifold for an GE one, plug in the loom, and there we go? All the sensors would plug in as normal except for boost (possibly put that before the air intake?). The GTE ECU would then read the whole thing as a GTE that just doesn't see boost (besides atmosphere), and hence would adjust the mix etc and run quite nicely...right?

Or do I need a 7MGE ecu? and therefore pretty well a whole 7MGE loom/sensor package?

[patrickleslie]

This is the only thread I can find which has remotely the info I'm after: http://www.celicasupra.com/forums/sh...ld-interchange

I would like a second or third opinion however

Compression ratio comparison. 8.4:1 as a NA 7MGTE, 9.2:1 as per 7MGE, 8.1:1 (?) as per current 5ME. Plus it's still a significant power increase on ye olde 5ME.