TA22 Ignition Barrel problemo

**king-szeitszam** · 08-10-2013, 04:07 PM

Yep I just had a chat with my old man who reckons VW's had the throw-out issue all the time and this sounds exactly the same. I don't have the car with me now or I'd be pulling the damn thing out to check myself. Pretty pissed off as I was told it had been sent off for a rebuild when i had the car in the shop weeks ago.

**lilcrash** · 08-10-2013, 05:53 PM

It can be as simple as work teeth on your flywheel or starter, if it stops in an awkward spot it will jam. If it does it again chuck in gear and rock the car forward and back and see if it fixes the problem.

**king-szeitszam** · 08-10-2013, 06:33 PM

Haven't heard that one before, great advice mate will give it a crack and hope it's as easy as that.
Failing that what are my best options?

**allencr** · 08-10-2013, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by king-szeitszam

...I'm sitting there for 5 minutes listening to it screech away.

Any particular reason not to shut if off?
Pull the small wire off the solenoid and use a jumper directly from the battery on it momentarily to start it.
Then.
Does it or does it not start the engine when the ignition key in the run position?
Does it or does it not screech away after removing the jumper?

**king-szeitszam** · 08-10-2013, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by allencr

Any particular reason not to shut if off?
Pull the small wire off the solenoid and use a jumper directly from the battery on it momentarily to start it.
Then.
Does it or does it not start the engine when the ignition key in the run position?
Does it or does it not screech away after removing the jumper?

As in I'm sitting there trying to start the car for 5 minutes; turn key to start car, screech, turn key off, repeat until car starts.
Unfortunately I've had to move the car around quite a bit (workshop to workshop) for non-optional jobs, so I'm forced to sit there trying for minutes until it starts.

I'll run the tests that you and lilcrash have recommended when I have the car back tomorrow and let you know what results I find. Maybe I'll take a video to show the exact noise that I'm getting as well, to be thorough.
It's definitely an interesting problem, the only straight answers that I've been getting about what it could be, have been from users on here. The tuner the car is currently with (and that the car was with when the problem supposedly started) insisted it was the barrel or ignition switch causing the problem- which, as lilcrash pointed out, doesn't make much sense.

**lilcrash** · 08-10-2013, 09:32 PM

In my 74 the start function just stopped working so wired in a relay and a button under the dash to start the car, never had a starter issue again and I had it for a few years.

**allencr** · 08-10-2013, 10:23 PM

Oh, OK. Thought the starter was on continuously.
4 cyl inline engines stop at 2 different places every time, so your flywheel ring gear has 2 spots where the starter initially hits it & that's where it wears badly or loses a tooth. Remount the flywheel if desperate & no replacement.
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Starter drives usually fail progressively, going from very infrequent to all the time over weeks or months.
Screech is from the starter drive/clutch/bendix, its one-way clutch is failing.
A bad ring gear is ALL the time, nothing intermittent.

**lexsmaz** · 10-10-2013, 11:16 AM

From the information that you are giving us, I would agree that it certainly sounds like the Starter motor / ring gear is the fault, if the tuner guy told you it was the ignition key / switch I would personally be looking for another Tuner as He doesnt know shit ..

The trouble is if it started of as being worn teeth on the starter drive pinion, I would say your ring gear is not to good now if you are sitting there for 5 minutes screeching away, which is just wearing away everything ..

No offence allencr, but I have never heard a one way clutch on the starter drive pinion screech, they usually just fairly silently slip & will sometimes hook up / stop slipping just as the key is let go & give a quick turn over of the motor just before it comes out of mesh ..

**allencr** · 10-10-2013, 07:42 PM

Screech? Like a high pitched whine or trans gears grinding?
And when it does start cranking, does it sound somewhat normal?
You can pull on a belt to change the flywheel's position a little, pull so it is going backwards from normal rotation & not fighting compression, 1cm is more then enough and that'll tell if the flywheel has 2 spots both missing a couple of teeth.

**king-szeitszam** · 10-10-2013, 08:17 PM

Once it cranks it's perfect- a normal start. Just getting it to the stage where it does crank is the issue.
I suppose the noise could be described as a high pitched grind- as you described Allen. It's very hard to describe.

The most annoying thing about this is that it's happened while the car was in a garage getting an idle valve fitted and some ECU settings tweaked- so I don't have complete access to it and I've got a mechanic who's running around like a madman trying to figure out why a supposedly "rebuilt" starter motor is up the creek.
I'm beginning to think his earlier statement that the ignition switch was the problem was simply to avoid the suggestion that something he installed might actually be at fault here.

The car now won't start at all (it'll crank maybe once off of 20 or so key turns, so the mechanic says)- so I can't drive the bloody thing back home to have a crack myself. This sounds like the wear and tear you were talking about Lexsmaz.
I've showed him this thread and the suggestions that you're throwing out there- particularly that we seem to have narrowed it down between ourselves to the starter motor / ring..not the switch. As I left the shop he'd started tugging away at things and was talking about taking a look at the flywheel.

Can't seem to rid myself of problems with this car. on the upside it looks as if literally everything mechanical in this car will be brand new.

**allencr** · 11-10-2013, 12:15 AM

Getting progressively worse, starter engaging less frequently while still sounding the same from the first time noticed, isn't something that can happen when starter gear teeth and/or flywheel teeth are failing, the sound from them changes from bad to worse, besides they like to get jammed & lockup. It will NEVER sound 'perfectly normal' until parts are replaced.

Any problem with the flywheel's ring gear teeth is going to sound horrible, sorta like what you'll get when trying to start an already running engine or holding the key in start until long after the engine is running.
It could be silent, except for the initial mechanical thunk & then the whine of the starter motor spinning, if there is no contact between starter & flywheel.
The starter drive/one-way clutch/bendix failure has the thunk & starter motor running whine, plus having an added whine with it like metal scraping together from the starter drive.