Power from a 3/2T-G Hybrid in TA22???

[sillycar chick]

Peoples, am I dreaming here or was I told the wrong thing....???

Just picked the car up from a dyno tune, and the guy said I started with 60HP at the wheels and now have 70HP.... am I dreaming or should I have a bit higher than this....?? I was expecting somewhere around 70 KW based on what I have read about other standard Hybrids on Toymods and comparing with TA22s.

I have twin solexs, 10:1 comp (i think), running 98octane and have genie tuned extractors.....??

[sillycar chick]

Oh, and I should add it has 2-1/4 exhaust. I didnt think it should have been that bad, I have read Standard 2T-Gs are around 115 HP at flywheel, estimating 30% loss = 80.5 HP at wheels, and that's a 1600. Mines an 1800

[JustCallMeOrlando]

I'd be pretty bloody disappointed with that. That said, to really be able to compare it with anything else (I mean, look at Rona's), was it a Dyno Dynamics dyno done in Shootout mode?

[sillycar chick]

Had another chat with the dyno guy (well actually my dad did) and he reckons its becuase the timing chain is stretched. I had problems with it before and tensioned it properly, but thought I could get away with it.

Aparrantly you can lose 10HP from a timing chain being stretched....? I mean, having 80HP at the wheels would be a little better, but it still sounds a little low to me...

[Rodger]

Sillycar Chick,

What revs? Was it taken to valve bounce at around 6600rpm?

I would not be disheartened with that figure yet.

The torque figure and curve will give a better indication of how well the motor is going especially in the mid range. That combination of motor should have bulk torque over a stock 2T-G.

My 1626cc 2T ran 74kW at the rear on ULP and 10.5:1 with what was know as a three quater cam and that was at around 7000rpm with double valve springs.

Would also need to know your jetting and ignition timing. It may have well run out of fuel before reaching valve bounce.

A low hp figure could indicate this. Mine probably runs too rich as I have #180 Main air and #150 fuel.

Regards

Rodger

[Rinmax]

I would expect more than that at the wheels.

I run a hybrid 3T/2TG with 40mm dellorto's, decent street cams, 4-1 extractors with 2 1/4 mandrel exhaust.

It put our 82kw at the wheels or 110hp in the old money.

To be 40hp behind is a little too much in my opinion, and would like to know more of the run itself. Like Rodger says what RPM was it taken too, and what was the torque curve like.

Can you put up a pic of the dyno read out?

[sillycar chick]

Didnt get a copy of the dyno readout, he had already chucked it cos I forgot to ask for it I feel really stupid now that i didnt. *kicks herself*

I think he took it to around 6000-6500 rpm, and he said he replaced main jets (bigger) and resized pump jets (bigger)

The timing chain started slipping more on the weekend, so I am hoping to have new ones and guides by next weekend so I can change them.

The car does feel more responsive and a little quicker, but that figure still doesnt sound right to me.

[74gt]

iirc when Mitch from the CCG had the 3T/2TG in tweety it made something like 78 - 80kw at the wheels. So about 80kw is what you should be getting/aiming for.

[TheToyman75]

Dana,

For a reality check on what to get from a stock 2TG have a look at the Toymods Dyno Day History Thread. Stcok 2TG's have turned figures from the mid 30's to Mid 50kw mark.

Rogers 2T and Rinmax's 2TG both had cams so show what is easily achievable but don't expect a figure that high with a stock head and cam. A stretched timing chain will mean your cam timing is out and this can easily rob you of some precious HP.

My last 2/3TG hybrid originaly had some very mild rally style cams and turned between 60 (80hp) & 68rwkw (91hp) depending on what Dyno it was on. With the bigger cams it turned 76rwkw (102hp).

The figure you got on the dyno does seam a little low for a rebuilt 2/3TG but see how you go after you replace the timing chain. Call your Dyno tuner and get him to reprint the graph for you. Even a brake dyno from the dawn of Dyno tuning stores an electronic record of the runs.

[sillycar chick]

Thanks Rod. I will give them a call and see if they can re-print the read-out.

Wasnt expecting as high as what the others have, but was thinking I should have more like 70rwkw? Do you have any idea on what difference there would be with a 2T-G stocko and a 3T-G stocko? Like only taking into consideration the capacity difference?

I asked dad tonight if I could "lend" his cams, but he doesnt have the time to help me set them up so that one is out the window for a while.

All this thinking is doing my head in

[TheToyman75]

Dana,

The power figure you get will vary from Dyno to Dyno. On a Dyno Dynamics Dyno in shoot out mode I would expect to see 60-65rwkw from your current package assuming all is working as it should be. On a Dyno pak or hub dyno you can add 20% to that.

The extra capacity yeilds torque and midrange more than it inflates the top number and you already have the benefit of a solid compression ratio. The cam and head dynamics are what will get you more top end power as it lifts the peak power higher up the RPM band. the bigger capacity of course carry's a larger cam easier than would a stock 1.6 and of course with a 3.5 or 4mm overbore it would carry it better again. (Those puppies haul arse with the right compression and cam selection, only problem is you run out of tacho )

Regardless of the dyno figure your 2/3TG should be a barrel of fun to drive and personally I actually prefered my last one when it had fat midrange and only 60ish rwkw to when it have a fat top end and 76rwkw.

A fat midrange is more responsive in and out of the corners and for me allot more fun to drive on the street. Sure if the road was more like a race circuit than a rally track the then the top end high RPM pull would be nice but its no longer my personal preference for the traffic light grand prix

A little off topic but do you know which flywheel you used ? was it the 3T or 2TG item ??? A 3T flywheel will murder the cars on road performance. (won't affect the dyno figure tho)

[TheToyman75]

Another after thought.

What brand of air filters are you using ???? There is an Easy 5kw or more in your choices here. I personally had Frank Kleinig back to back Dyno run the pornstar with ramflo, Redline and K&N filters. With the Ramflo the carbies wouldn't even balance nicely and it wouldn't rev out ceanly. Frank spat it so I got the redline and gave them a go., The redline was even but chocked the engine and he was not happy with the top end so we bit the bullet and he ordered the K&N. These picked up just over 5rwkw on the redlines.
Keep in mind these were all NEW "performance" air filters !

Towards the end I actually ran with some ram tubes and no filter which aided my mid range very nicely to the tune of a solid 5-600RPM sooner powerband. (No air filters is not so good for the Carby or the engine tho)

[Rinmax]

Some good info being given out there Toyman, well done. Sillycar be cafeful of just chucking in some "borrowed" cams.
1. The figure you then get isn't really what "your" engine does.
2. Chucking in cams is more than just bolt in. I'm sure your aware of setting you chain tension and cam gear positions, but try not to forget things like you may need to adjust valve clearances as to avoid valve damage at high RPM. I just did the shims in my hybrid a few months back and that is a job I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[sillycar chick]

A little off topic but do you know which flywheel you used ? was it the 3T or 2TG item ??? A 3T flywheel will murder the cars on road performance. (won't affect the dyno figure tho)

Yeah, the 3T one By the time I learnt that the 2T-G one was lighter, dad had chucked the old 2T-G block along with the flywheel still attached Not very impressed, he normally doesnt do things like this....

What brand of air filters are you using ????

F...F....FUEL TECH ??? They look like this http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?i...60897fj8dg.jpg I can check when I leave for work....
Any suggestions on where to find the "higher performance" ones you mention? (keeping in mind they dont have much room to fit them in)

Regardless of the dyno figure your 2/3TG should be a barrel of fun to drive

Dont get me wrong people, I LOVE IT!! Last night I gave it all off a set of lights and, and with a sick timing chain and all, she really took off!! If I can replace the chain next weekend, I will probably be taking it to the next test n tune!!

[sillycar chick]

Sillycar be cafeful of just chucking in some "borrowed" cams.
1. The figure you then get isn't really what "your" engine does.
2. Chucking in cams is more than just bolt in. I'm sure your aware of setting you chain tension and cam gear positions, but try not to forget things like you may need to adjust valve clearances as to avoid valve damage at high RPM. I just did the shims in my hybrid a few months back and that is a job I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Thanks Rinmax, I know they have to be all set up properly again with the new shims between the valve and cup, but how long does this really take????

They are a nice set dad had in his hybrid years ago, he always told me "no youre not getting them" but I keep working on him. He wants them for a 3T-GTE he is going to rebuild but that is a LONG way from happening, if at all. He just likes to sit them there so he can say he has them ..... I was getting close last night until he said "I dont want to stuff around setting them up, havent got the time" And if I manage to "borrow" them, I probably will be able to keep them in there till I have finished my next hybrid, so it will work out well....