MA61 Automatic Transmission

[Bitsa]

If this is in the wrong section please let me know and I'll move it. There is a technical question at the end though.

Blew the auto in my Supra. Normally would fit another myself, but, getting old and not really keen on getting under the car and have never replaced an auto before. So, took it to the local auto transmission joint in Newcastle with another trans and torque converter in the back and asked them to take the old one out and put this other one in. Didn't bother asking them about a price. I feel that was a big mistake. Got a call to pick it up yesterday. Price for repairs ? $927-85

Question. Have I been ripped off ?

A quick rundown:
Remove and replace trans $680-00
Remove an replace gear selector $58-50
Trans oil and flush $95-00
Cleaning material to flush cooler $10-00
GST $84-50
Total: $927-85

Anyway, after reluctantly paying for the repairs I've discovered there is a vibration that feels like it's coming from the torque converter area. No vibrations with the old trans. Smooth as silk til it died. The vibration is at idle and get's a whole lot worse if you give it a gutful. I will take the car back to see what they say, but, just wondering if anyone might have some sort of clue as to what it might be cause I need the car daily and if I can fix it myself I will.

Any help appreciated,

Trevor

[CrUZida]

At a guess it would take about 4hrs to remove, and the same to refit.
$680 / 8hrs = $85 an hour, which is pretty standard these days.

As for the vibration, maybe they didn't put the tailshaft back together right, or maybe the new auto isn't any good?

Have you gone back to them to ask?

[maj]

I was quoted around a grand extra to have the transmission removed/reinstalled when considering a rebuild, so sounds about right to me.

You always have the right to ask how much they expect it to be and breakdown of costs before getting the work done. If they said 2 hours labour but charged 5 for example, then they clearly are not a reputable or knowledgeable shop. In an ideal world they should also contact you if they think costs might increase, but rarely happens and is always a good idea to give them a call just to check how it's going.

Regarding your issue, was it apparent when you drove it for the first time after the swap? If so I'd be taking it back immediately.

If you describe it coming from near the torque converter, it could possibly be either they did not align and torque the flex plate correctly to the back of the engine, or same with the torque converter to the flex plate, both cases they would be liable for it.

[Bitsa]

Thanks for the replies men. Appreciate it.

Re the price I'm over the initial WTF !!!! Just thought it would be cheaper.

Took it back this morning and the bloke in charge (after taking it for a drive) says it's not the transmission nor the converter. He say it sounds like an engine mount is broken or the exhaust is rubbing on something. Personally I disagree, but, he's the expert or something like that.

maj :If you describe it coming from near the torque converter, it could possibly be either they did not align and torque the flex plate correctly to the back of the engine, or same with the torque converter to the flex plate, both cases they would be liable for it.

That makes more sense than anything the transmission bloke said to me.

What's involved in checking those things ?

[Bitsa]

Missed this bit.

Regarding your issue, was it apparent when you drove it for the first time after the swap? If so I'd be taking it back immediately.

Yes it was. Also, when I start it there's a different feeling in the starter motor than there was before. Hard to explain, it's like it grabs more or something.

[maj]

Sounds very much like the flex plate then. i.e. the "flywheel" for an automatic.

The starter motor cranks the flex plate, so very much sounds to me like it's somehow been aligned incorrectly, or not torqued up probably and left skewed. The Alignment is pretty hard to get wrong since the bolt holes are usually pretty tight so that you can install 3 bolts and it should automatically center, usually there's 8 bolts to install and you tighten them in a pattern to stop the flex plate from being put on at an incorrect angle. It could also be spacer plates between the engine and flex plate weren't put back on (don't know if your engine has them).

If it were the engine mounts or exhaust, then what has changed since they had the car? Would either of those need to be removed to get the old transmission out? I'd say the answer is probably NO. But even if they did, I'd be asking them this, and telling them that if it is related to those noises, it's something that's occurred from taking the car to their shop.

I don't know how easy it might be to check, but removing the starter motor you might be able to see if there's any movement on the flex plate. Also you can remove the lower inspection plate (hope your MA61 has one, it should though?) will reveal the flex plate and torque converter, from there you should be able the spin the engine (might take a bit of effort though with belts attached) and feel if theres any play.

The inspection plate is at the bottom of the engine though where it meets the transmission, so you'll have to get right under the car to get to it, so it's by no means convenient.

I would be pissed at paying that much for a shotty removal/reinstall. The 1 grand price I quoted was from a very reputable transmission place who has been in the business for decades, and specialises in rebuilding older transmissions as well as modern ones.

[Bitsa]

maj thanks for that mate. I'm really going to have to go back and find out exactly what these people did.

A few points:

Sounds very much like the flex plate then. i.e. the "flywheel" for an automatic.

The starter motor cranks the flex plate, so very much sounds to me like it's somehow been aligned incorrectly, or not torqued up probably and left skewed. The Alignment is pretty hard to get wrong since the bolt holes are usually pretty tight so that you can install 3 bolts and it should automatically center, usually there's 8 bolts to install and you tighten them in a pattern to stop the flex plate from being put on at an incorrect angle. It could also be spacer plates between the engine and flex plate weren't put back on (don't know if your engine has them).

Would they have had to take the flex plate off ? As far as I'm aware the trans and converter can be removed from the car without removing the flex plate. When the original trans wouldn't get any gears I thought it was the trans that went bang but it might have just been the converter and if that's the case it's bolted to the flex plate so maybe it bent the plate.

If it were the engine mounts or exhaust, then what has changed since they had the car? Would either of those need to be removed to get the old transmission out? I'd say the answer is probably NO. But even if they did, I'd be asking them this, and telling them that if it is related to those noises, it's something that's occurred from taking the car to their shop.

I'll ask about the above.

I don't know how easy it might be to check, but removing the starter motor you might be able to see if there's any movement on the flex plate. Also you can remove the lower inspection plate (hope your MA61 has one, it should though?) will reveal the flex plate and torque converter, from there you should be able the spin the engine (might take a bit of effort though with belts attached) and feel if theres any play.The inspection plate is at the bottom of the engine though where it meets the transmission, so you'll have to get right under the car to get to it, so it's by no means convenient.

As far as I'm aware there is an inspection plate so I'll get under and have a look to see if anything is bent or loose. There's a drain around the oval near me so I can park over it and crawl under the car no worries.

I would be pissed at paying that much for a shotty removal/reinstall. The 1 grand price I quoted was from a very reputable transmission place who has been in the business for decades, and specialises in rebuilding older transmissions as well as modern ones.

I'm not happy with what I got for my $927.00 and this place in Newcastle has been there a long time so I really did expect better from them. Anyway, one way or another it will be fixed.

Cheers maj.

[maj]

The torque converter bolts through the flex plate and is usually accessible from the inspection port, so I don't see why they would have removed the flex plate, so yes you are correct it's not needed.
I don't know why the starter motor might be catching though, which leads me to believe they might have.

Is it the same torque converter or another one that came with the replacement transmission? If it's a different one, might be faulty or dirty and causing some drag on the flex plate that's causing the starter motor to act differently.

[Bitsa]

The torque converter came with the replacement. This replacement has only done 95,000 k's. The gear changes are smooth. Was taken from a MA61 that had a 2jz put in it.

I'm going back to the trans place today to find out what they did. What annoys me about that is it's like I'm an annoyance to them because they have work to do.

In essence what they want me to do is check other things before they check what they've done. I'm a firm believer it should be the other way around.

[lexsmaz]

From what you have said, it sounds engine speed related in that you can get it by sitting stationery & just bringing the revs up, so sounds like a Torque converter issue, does sound strange with the starter motor noise though ... Unless they have stuffed & they are probably not going to admit to it either, the onus is on you as you supplied a second hand untested item to them & they just fitted it ..

[Bitsa]

Just went to the trans place to find out exactly what they did. Discovered I'm not allowed to talk to the bloke that did it, only allowed to talk to the boss. The boss won't be there today. That's funny!!!, to a degree.

........ Unless they have stuffed & they are probably not going to admit to it either, the onus is on you as you supplied a second hand untested item to them & they just fitted it ..

Fair call on both of those points lexsmaz, but, they say there's nothing wrong with either trans or converter so if there was you'd think they'd just say so. I'd be ok with that scenario. That said the trans and converter worked fine in the car they came out of. The boss said yesterday it's either an engine mount or the exhaust. Going to have to bite the bullet and get under it and see what's going on, which, I wish I had of done in the first place. Hopefully it is just an engine mount or something similiar though to me it sure as hell feels converter/flex plate related.

[maj]

Also remember my limited knowledge is still only based off the info you have, so it could be possible the engine has moved on its mounts and is skewing the torque converter. I don't see how it could be exhaust related unless it is a harmonic vibration.

I still maintain though that if it was mount related, it's something that has happened during their labour, and whilst they aren't accountable for replacing any parts, it should be their policy to point these things out to you so that it covers their liability. Even to the point that it's written on paper so in a year or two time if something major happened, there's no word of mouth stuff going on.

It's sad that businesses still operate in this way and also do not let you talk to someone at any time within business hours. Fair enough the mechanic who did the work has money to make so they don't want you wasting his time, but you have a legitimate right to information regarding the work you paid for, so it helps you understand any issues yourself.
Also it should be a sign to them that you are bringing in a nice old car shows you have some level of interest and passion, not just another paying customer. I've always found the shops that also show interest in your car are the ones worth giving repeat business.
Even surprised me once when I brought in my wifes old honda for some basic steering work, they commented how nice they thought that particular model was and there wasn't many around anymore, or at least coming to their shop, and then proceeded to tell me about EVERTHING they did and noticed on the car, without giving me a sales pitch. I didn't think the difference between a practical old car and an appliance was that black and white, and as a result I try to give them my business where possible.

[HMI265]

i wouldn't have been happy paying the 680 for removal and re-install, my m
echanic quoted me 500 @ $100p/h for manual gearbox removal, rear main seal (sump off), new gearbox mounts. All parts supplied. Oh and new flywheel bolts.
This is on a RA65 though. Managed to do it myself with bugger all tools and facilities on my driveway in 8 hours with an hour nap while waiting for a mate to help lift the box back in.
I'm no specialist gearbox mechanic either.

[Bitsa]

It's sad that businesses still operate in this way and also do not let you talk to someone at any time within business hours. Fair enough the mechanic who did the work has money to make so they don't want you wasting his time, but you have a legitimate right to information regarding the work you paid for, so it helps you understand any issues yourself.

Makes sense to me.

All I want to know is what did they do. Even the bill just says $680-00 for remove and replace, no hourly rate or anything. A point I neglected to mention before is when doing my car they started it at 8-00 am Tuesday morning then rang me at 12-30pm to tell me it was ready to go. How do I know this ? Well Tuesday morning I went there at around 11-00 am to see how things were going as I'd had it towed there the previous Friday and I thought the bloke said it would be ready on quote, "Monday next week". Turns out he said "one day next week"

The girl behind the front desk said it'd been started that morning (Tuesday) and she'd give me a call when finished. From my calculations it took them 4 1/2 hours. According to my calculator that's $151.11 an hour. You'd think it'd work properly for that price HMI265 I'd have been happy with $100 an hour meaning $450 for mine would have been reasonable to me.

Anyway I'm rambling.

Update: Got under it this morning as best I could. Mounts seem ok exhaust seems ok, all good.

Did however discover a not very tight bolt i.e one of the ones holding the trans to the engine. Tried to tighten it up a bit. Wouldn't tighten. Took it out and bits of thread from the trans housing came with it. Did have some nice loctite around it though. Seems they've stripped one and let it pass, maybe. My eyes aren't great, but, it looks to me as if that part of the trans isn't up tight against the engine.

Question is: Am I onto something ?

[lexsmaz]

Sounds like its not the best place to deal with if they are like that as far as not being able to talk to the mechanic, is it a tranny place or just a work shop ...

4.5 hours is a pretty quick turn around but they could have had 2 guys working on it or at least that is what they will tell you they did !!

I think you said they mentioned remove & refit gear shift, if that was the case unless MA61 Automatics are different from other cars to me that's Bullshit ..

Alignment of the trans / torque converter cant be out as mentioned by someone unless basically all the Bell housing bolts are loose, are there more bolts stripped or just the one ??

The vibration you mention as I asked is it the same at idle as at 2,000 rpm as an example, or does it increase as the revs increase & so get worse & worse, if it stays about the same it & only changes slightly it could be one of the engine mounts has collapsed ..

Another poor thing is that they didn't mention to you that it felt strange etc, the only thing is sometimes that then opens up a can of worms with the customer then saying it wasn't like that etc etc ...