4AG ZE/TE 4wd wagon. Which gear box?

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Hi,
I'm trying to choose the best ratios for my street wagon. 4wd corolla AE95
At the moment I'm putting in a bigport 4AGZE with aftermarket sc pulley.
1st conversion, so I'm keeping it simple this time round, ..but I'm pretty sure (like a lot of people) down the track I'll switch to turbo.. just a simple T25.

the corolla 4wd's weigh around 1200 to 1400kg depending on loading and have really low 1st and 2nd gear. Great for mud and snow and a bit of gravel hill climbing, ..but shit for a turbo'd street machine.


So, I've got an E57F5 gearbox
(4AFE 4WD WAGON)

1st 3.833
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.333
4th 0.918
5th 0.775
Final 3.722


E58 gearbox.
(4AGZE lsd fwd)
1st - 3.214
2nd - 2.045
3rd - 1.333
4th - 0.972
5th - 0.820
Final-3.944

and I see camry E series boxes go for around $200 on ebay
E153
camry v6

1st 3.230
2nd 1.913
3rd 1.258
4th 0.918
5th 0.731
Final 3.933

A guy who turbo'd his 4wd corolla said it needed taller gears. He was using the standard gearbox with a smallport and T3/4 turbo.

Another guy I spoke to put the camry gears into the 4agze bell housing and matched it up to his fwd mazda mx6 trubo. Pushing above 200kw IIRC
The Toyota gearbox thread. - Mazda MX6 Forums: MX6 Forum
(great pics in that thread BTW) He said the gears were a bit too tall for daily duties. but I couldn't imagine his car weighing much more or less than a camry..

I used this calculator:
http://www.housemanautosport.com./ra...calculator.htm
and it seems the E58 lower gears are well suited, ..but the top gears aren't as tall as the factory 4wd box.

I've already started pulling apart the E58, but before I go any further, I just thought I'd ask and see what I could learn about the camry boxes - worth it or not?
I'd like to do some track days for fun...
But most of all the gearing would have to suit everyday driving. Keep the missus happy too!

[Xauterus]

The Camry boxes are wide gears so you cannot change the diff ratios between the E58 and the Camry E53. You should find a E58 with 3.933 gears pretty good in your wagon. Depending how much power and the amount you want to rev it then 4.5 gears would really wake it up. I have the 4.5 gears with a 20v and while it revs a bit the ratios really suit the revvy nature of the 4age. You have some added weight with the AWD wagon so I think it would be a good ratio to consider. Put that ratio into your gear calculator and see how it looks. I think you can also fit the camry 5th gear to the E58. I have seen articles on it being done to the rav4 box to strengthen their weak 5th gear. I think this is possible because the 5th gear hangs out the end of the box as you have seen when you strip one.
Remember that by changing to a 4age it has totally different powerband to the 4afe.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

For sure, I'm looking for a usable torquey power band.
Considered - GZE, small turbo etc, ..with various bits of each lying around the shed.

For cautionary reasons (not performance) I've just changed my mind and will be using a stock 7A bottom end with smallport head and go the turbo route.
I don't like how much grinding is required on a GZE block to clear the transfer case. Can't remember if the garret trubo I have is T25 or T28, ..was also considering new ebay T3/4.
Any opinions??

So..
don't want to rev past 7000rpms which changes things on the calculator a bit.
I've entered the E58 gear ratios in at 7000rpms
Here's what it shows, with gear shifts around 4500rpms to 5500rpms (mildly spirited street driving)
1st - 43km
2nd - 67km
3rd - 103km
4th - 141km
5 th - 167km
==

Now..
Camry E53 gear ratios at 7000rpms (similar gear shifts 4000 - 5500)
1st - 42km
2nd - 73km
3rd - 112km
4th - 145km
5th - 182km ...(slipping on 5th gear from the 4wd box would increase up to 188km @5910rpms)

Based on that, the camry box looks a bit better, ..BUT, ..this is only part of the picture. I'm trying to get an idea of how power to weight will come into play.
Will one gearbox accelerate swiftly or bog down more than the other??

I've lifted the following info from a couple of sites:

>The camry gearbox I'm considering comes froma vienta XV10 V6, puts out 136 kW @ 5200rpm. Max torque 264 Nm @4400rpm. Weighs 1435 kg

>A factory 7AFTE sportivo puts out 115kw, at 5600 rpm and 237Nm (175 ft/lb) at 3600 rpms. Weighs 1160kg

>Corolla 4wd wagon weighs 1185kg
Loosely based on those figures, I'd guesstimate a 9PSI, 7AGTE smallport with tuned intakes, good exhaust & standard ECU might produce around 120kw? maybe more..

Feel free to chime in - I really don't yet know how to calculate these things!
Hoping that someone more experienced can explain which gear box would best suit street driving.


PS.
You're right about 5th gear cover being easily removed. Have heard of people working on 5th gear without removing from the engine bay.
..If I did use a camry box I'd be swapping the camry internals into the 4wd casing. As shown in the mazda mx6 link ^^above^^

[Xauterus]

I think for a road car you should be looking at engine revs at 100 to 110 km/hour. Its what you can live with at highway speeds. You cant drive at 188 km/hour on the road. I think about 3500 at 100km/hour is the sweet spot without it being too much.

RPM / Speed / Gear Ratio Visual Calc

Try this calculator. You will need to enter 5th gear as fourth to get it to work. You can click between different diff ratios etc to keep it more visual. You can also fiddle tyre sizes as well.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

No.. 188km/hr on the road might attract a bit of attention ..but a bit of poke for some track days would be fun.

So.. turbz is a T25, hopefully picking 7A block up this week from Toyrolla spares.
From memory the wagon sits on about 3200 revs at 100km/hr so you're pretty close.


Dead tired right now, about to crash for the night..
had a little play with the calculator - that's really handy - thanks Xauterus - Pos rep 4 U
Not sure if it's calculating the low rear diff ratio, doesn't seem to go low enough.. have to convert pounds to kilo's too.

Will post some more results later..

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Update.

Committed to building a 7AGTE.
Bottom end is at the engine builders right now.

In my excitement I picked up a V6 Camry box for $150, ..but then realised/remembered earlier comments: Camry uses 20mm gears and 4wd corollas use 13mm gears.

I've measured the 2 boxes from the outside and once the 4wd bell housing is bolted on to the Camry box, the whole things ends up being about 40mm longer, which isn't an issue in terms of engine bay clearance.
The engine mounts are attached to the corolla 4wd bell housing, so there's no issue there.
I measured from where the camry box meets the bell housing to where the left CV shaft comes out and got the same measurement for both boxes.
So it seems the front diff's are the same size in terms of mass.
The extra length was in the casing around the gear sets.

Concerned that if I pull both boxes apart, I might end up finding that the 20mm Camry gear sets don't match up with the Corolla 4wd front diff /ring gear

OR
If I attempted to fit the Camry ring gear onto the Corolla 4wd front diff, I'll screw up the front/rear diff ratios

..I guess this could then be remedied by calculating and fitting the inverse rear diff ring gear..

Seems a lot of work and not worth the gamble, perhaps I should just sell the Camry box, ..but thought I'd post in case some Celica GT-Four or Rav4 guys had been down a similar path...

[Xauterus]

The problem might be the diff ratio that comes with the Camry box. If you need a lower diff ratio then you can use the ratio out of an 3sg MR2. The are about 4.3:1. You will have to count what the camry one is. The front rear diff ratios are in the transfer case and the rear diff. You can change the ratio in the box.

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Sounds like it might be workable.

This is what some more experienced associates had to say on my face book build thread when I mentioned my vague inexperienced concerns.

Jess:
"No no, I think they will be the same width (Edit - talking bout ring gears) ..so the camry one will bolt on to the all trac diff.
Ben is the ring gear in a thin geared boxed thinner as well? Or is it just the gears?"

Ben: (apparently very experienced w/Toyota E-series boxes)
"Yep all bolts in no issues u can use 2wd front diff too but u loose the center diff and need to machine a spline on the diff housing to couple with transfer"

So, ..sounds like he's saying the Camry gear sets will bolt up to the Corolla 4wd front diff.. 'no issues'

Can't access face book right now, so I'll clear it with them later...

In the mean time, can someone clear up an alltrac 4wd question for me:

Is the ring gear that bolts on to the front diff the same thing as the final driven gear?
..and does that same ring gear determine the front diff ratio?
OR
is it the internal gears of the front diff itself that determine the front diff ratio???

Thanks

[Xauterus]

Just think of the ring and pinion gears in your gearbox as the final drive. The gears in the transfer case and the rear diff housing cancel each other out.

Think maths

Gearbox Transfer Rear Diff

3.9/1 x 1/2.9 x 1/2.9 = 3.9/1 as the others cancel each other out.