2TG 88262 head information / rant

[king-szeitszam]

Hi,

I've recently purchased a 2TGEU and discovered that it's the famous (or infamous, depending who you're asking) 88262 head version.

I've done a lot of reading on both the old and new forums and found what most of you, no doubt, already know; that the 2TG/3T hybrid project I had planned for the (distant) future isn't possible.

For those of you that don't know, the Cliff Notes version for why this is, is as follows; in the late 70's someone in the upper echelons of the Toyota hierarchy developed morals (or a brain tumour- haven't decided yet) and became emissions conscious, resulting in a change from the traditional 2TG head (at that time the 88261) to the new 'environmentally friendly' 88262 design. I'm sure this was just fine for all the nappy-wearing 93 year old buyers at the time- anything beat the horse drawn carts they were used to- but from what I gather everyone else needed it like they needed a hole in their head (apologies to anyone with a hole in their head, I'm sure it's lovely).

I haven't yet decided how I feel about my new hippy-spec engine. Sure, it has all the 'go fast' additions Toyota gradually introduced to its 2TG variants over the years- double valve springs, reinforcing, cams, automatic tampon removers etc- but yet it's still endearingly referred to as "the dog of all 2TG's" and is "generally avoided" (I believe that was you- thetoyman75- way back when in 2002!). Not that anyone believes that global warming mumbo jumbo theory anyway- sounds like Illuminati to me.

I have two questions for the Toymods community this evening.

The first is a matter of vanity; am I blessed, or cursed to have the 262 head?

I'm aware there could be two perspectives to be had here. One being that the 88262 doesn't perform as well and therefore isn't worthy of as much praise, and the other being that it's less common, has features the other 2TG variants don't have and is something of an oddity and thus a nice thing to have.

While I understand the first perspective, it's far from well documented (at least as far as my trawling can tell- please correct me if I am wrong) and no one has offered any figures or information pertaining to exactly how much of a whack the 88262 suffered in the performance department, due to the changes Toyota made. It's clear to me from what I have read that theoretically speaking there is no argument to be had here, the 262's design means it's less power efficient than it's predecessors... but can anyone out there enrich this with data? I am extremely interested in hearing any information regarding the 262's performance as compared to its peers.

I myself prefer to lean towards the latter perspective; it's a rarity, an oddity and something of a gem. Plus, you get that warm, fuzzy feeling whilst driving knowing that you helped save a tree or two. Let's be honest here- it's practically a freakin' Prius. Inadvertently, by purchasing a 262 head, I have transcended the rev-heads endless quest for horsepower; scouring engine bays and tweaking Solex's in search of ever-elusive killerwasps. Instead, while I drive I find myself enlightened, in a place of peace where I am in harmony with mother nature, surrounded by fluffy clouds and harp-strumming cherubs carrying shimmies who buff up my paint job while I cruise, in gratitude for the service I have done the environment. Or that could just be the acid.

But seriously, who out there shares the opinion that- when we forget about (I reiterate; non-existent) power figures- being the 'black sheep of the bunch' is a good thing? Does anyone else think that the 262 has value beyond that of simple nostalgia? Or will it forever be shunned as the under-performer of the group?

Further to that; does the 88262's implied rarity make it somewhat exclusive or valuable? Will this value increase exponentially in the future as 2TG's eventually become less and less common?
I am of the opinion that- as the 262 shares less interchangeable parts with other versions, and isn't compatible with the common hybrid modification- it is more likely in the future to be found unmolested and thus more of a collectors/traditionalist item. Is this a reasonable assumption? River, thetoyman75, other experienced toymodders- have you noticed changes in the attitude towards these 2TG's over the years as Celicas become more of a rarity?


I realise what I'm asking here is largely relative and dependent on the application of the engine and the attitude of its owner, but I don't care- I'd like to hear the general consensus on these neglected variants.



My second question pertains to performance and the 88262's potential in that department. As an enthusiast I'd like to get the most out of my engine, but I'm not interested in fully hekdik dryfting 4 lyf, or racing, or breaking the sound barrier; just simple, reliable, smile-on-your-dial performance. Because the hybrid path is not an option, I've been forced to explore other ways to coax those killerwasps out of hiding- nice extractors, tuned exhaust, ITB's yada yada etcetera.

It is my understanding that due to their oddities, 262's are somewhat harder to glean results out of, or at the very least will respond differently to upgrades than other versions. With it's quirks in mind- can any particular modifications be made to circumnavigate the performance issues this head is seen as having?

I guess what I'm reaching for here is a tailor-made blueprint so to speak for the 88262- if it's necessary- not just for myself but for other people who possess or find themselves in possession of a 262 head. I'm asking these questions generally.

Will the 262 respond to something like porting (for example) as well as its predecessors, does the altered combustion chamber dramatically effect how the engine behaves in relation to common upgrades made on the 2TG family?
Alternatively- are there strong points to the 262 head that can be exploited or enhanced to increase performance?
Are there weak points caused by the design that can, or should be addressed through particular modifications? Are there modifications that would be viable for other 2TG variants, that would be redundant on the 262 (excluding the hybrid path)?

Or- because this 2TG variant is something of a rarity- should I leave all the internals unmolested and unmodified, and be content with a simple reconditioning and overhaul?

Any technical or well informed information regarding the 262 variant is welcome here, I'm interested in hearing it's triumphs and shortfalls, strengths and weaknesses- anything really, I'm a junkie.

My 2TG is in my daily driver TA22- so I myself am not looking for anything crazy. There will be no land speed records broken on my behalf, unless that fighter jet turbine I ordered from Russia comes through. I simply want to know the do's and don'ts of my engine, it's potential and where it stands in the long line of engines Toyota has produced.


I'd like to say that personally- I love that it's a 'black-sheep'- and one could argue that that's all that matters. 88262 or not, it makes a shitload more power than my 2T, it sounds fantastic, looks great and has a little bit of a story behind it too. Hell, it might even be worth a few simoleons in the future. A quick shout out to 'lt1972' here on the forums for his patience with me over the months with this engine and the great work he's done refurbishing it- it was as clean as a baby's bottom when he dropped it off and it's purring beautifully now, top work. Once she's all finished there will be an updated members rides thread for those who are interested.

I apologise for my rambling, and thank anyone who responds in advance. I hope that this thread proves enlightening for other curious readers, or- failing that- is at least a source of entertainment when I get flamed for not scouring the forums more meticulously!

Cheers,
Kingy

[BrianGT]

Just spent 20 mins of my life reading that......20 mins I'll never get back!!

But.....Oh how I chuckled!! Cheers mate! (

My own 2T/3T hybrid at 1940cc has the "correct" head of course........I don't want to post the number up as I feel it will add to your parranoia and I wouldn't like to be responsible for your downfall in society!

As an aside, my friend has just built a 2T/3T hybrid with just the crank and std bore and his engine is a 2TGEU....so if it hasn't enough power to drive off the ramps I will now know what has caused it!!

Have fun but stay enlightened too! (

[king-szeitszam]

Just spent 20 mins of my life reading that......20 mins I'll never get back!!

Cue sharp intake of breath..

But.....Oh how I chuckled!! Cheers mate!

..and relax! Phew. Glad I could be of some entertainment. I see you're enjoying the bustling internet metropolis Toymods becomes at 1:30 in the morning!

My own 2T/3T hybrid at 1940cc has the "correct" head of course

Not to say mine is the incorrect head, I'm sure! I'll have you know that- like any good Catholic- I believe all heads were created equal in the eyes of God.

I don't want to post the number up as I feel it will add to your parranoia and I wouldn't like to be responsible for your downfall in society!

Mate for your information I'm glad to sacrifice a few of my killerwasps to win the endless fight against global warming. One day you'll have to explain your gratuitous contribution to greenhouse gasses to the Almighty and we'll see who's laughing then!

Have fun but stay enlightened too!

I dream of a day when 262's, 261's and all other variants can cruise in harmony together as one, with neither feeling less adequate than the other. Together, we can raise awareness of the neglected 88262 and eradicate this variant-ism forever!

Haha- cheers mate, thanks for the reply. Take it easy.

-kingy

[BrianGT]

Cue sharp intake of breath..



..and relax! Phew. Glad I could be of some entertainment. I see you're enjoying the bustling internet metropolis Toymods becomes at 1:30 in the morning!



Not to say mine is the incorrect head, I'm sure! I'll have you know that- like any good Catholic- I believe all heads were created equal in the eyes of God.



Mate for your information I'm glad to sacrifice a few of my killerwasps to win the endless fight against global warming. One day you'll have to explain your gratuitous contribution to greenhouse gasses to the Almighty and we'll see who's laughing then!



I dream of a day when 262's, 261's and all other variants can cruise in harmony together as one, with neither feeling less adequate than the other. Together, we can raise awareness of the neglected 88262 and eradicate this variant-ism forever!

Haha- cheers mate, thanks for the reply. Take it easy.

-kingy

Cool as feck!

My mate has an AE71 i think it is, he's removed the fuel injection (may God have mercy on his soul!) and is going to be running it on Dellorto 40's with uprated cams ......I'm sure he will have enough power to actually enjoy it!

By the way...it's late afternoon over here in Scottyland! I'm often on here all on my own due to time zones and I can tell you it get's a bit scary......doesn't hep My parranoia! (

I sometimes think we get too carried away with having to "have" the right version of whatever the internet deems fit as being the "right" one.......I used to be able to think for myself once!
Cheers! (

[stidnam]

Isn't it essentially only the combustion chamber that is different between the 262 and the older 2TG heads? Yes there are differences in castings, head bolt stregthening etc but these play a minor part. I'd imagine that the ports would be the same also so it would be down to the different shaped chamber which supposidly has better squish. Whether this makes more power I can't say but I think that main reason why people tend not to like these heads is that as soon as you start playing with a 3t stroker crank you will need custom pistons as the usual 3tc forged or flycut pistons don't work with this head shape.

[miko]

I always thought that the late head was not preferred because the combustion chamber shape was incompatible with any after market high compression pistons that are available. As the head design requires a pop top to raise compression, having the shrouding causes interference. If you're building a hybrid you might be OK? You'd have to measure it to be sure. Certainly the chamber shape on the late head is similar to other modern hemis and having more squish is better than less.

[king-szeitszam]

Cool as feck!

My mate has an AE71 i think it is, he's removed the fuel injection (may God have mercy on his soul!) and is going to be running it on Dellorto 40's with uprated cams ......I'm sure he will have enough power to actually enjoy it!

By the way...it's late afternoon over here in Scottyland! I'm often on here all on my own due to time zones and I can tell you it get's a bit scary......doesn't hep My parranoia! (

I sometimes think we get too carried away with having to "have" the right version of whatever the internet deems fit as being the "right" one.......I used to be able to think for myself once!
Cheers! (

I couldn't agree more. The internet is a fantastic tool, it makes communities like Toymods possible- however it also makes it incredibly easy to develop the 'Aw, but look what he's got..' syndrome...particularly easy in a place like Toymods where the majority of users have such envious rides and are far more skilled than you are!

As a result, instead of saying something like; "What I've got is perfect, I'm completely content!" I end up saying something like "Yeah..It's okay. But NEXT time..."
NEXT time it'll be a 261!

Isn't it essentially only the combustion chamber that is different between the 262 and the older 2TG heads? Yes there are differences in castings, head bolt stregthening etc but these play a minor part. I'd imagine that the ports would be the same also so it would be down to the different shaped chamber which supposidly has better squish. Whether this makes more power I can't say but I think that main reason why people tend not to like these heads is that as soon as you start playing with a 3t stroker crank you will need custom pistons as the usual 3tc forged or flycut pistons don't work with this head shape.

Hi stidnam- got that shipping info on those seals yet!?

Yeah you pretty much nailed it. But where I'm coming from is less to do with individual (albeit minor) differences but rather these differences a whole. It's the only one of the 2TG's to have ALL of the 'upgraded components' as far as I'm aware; double valve springs, reinforcing, nice cam, supposedly a more squishy chamber etcetera.. I'm talking about the cumulative effect of these things and the possibilities they together might present.

For instance, I've heard very quiet mumblings that the 262 head might be better for turbo charging because it's reinforced and 'may' have lower compression figures than the others, due to the chamber and piston design. If this is true and it can be confirmed, then this would be a strong point of the head that I or other owners could take advantage of.

I always thought that the late head was not preferred because the combustion chamber shape was incompatible with any after market high compression pistons that are available. As the head design requires a pop top to raise compression, having the shrouding causes interference. If you're building a hybrid you might be OK? You'd have to measure it to be sure. Certainly the chamber shape on the late head is similar to other modern hemis and having more squish is better than less.

Yes from what I've read that's the case. As far as I know, the only way to get your hands on aftermarket pistons to suit the 262 are to have them custom made. The way I see it; if you're going to go to the expense of having custom oversized pistons made (if that's even possible) then you probably have enough money to buy a finished hybrid with a 'normal' 2TG head. I've seen hybrids go for less than $2000- which is close to what I imagine all the custom work would cost on a 262.
Warm fuzzy feelings about reduced emissions stop appearing..


Let's not forget that the 88262 supposedly doesn't make as much power as it's predecessors. I'm sure that if this is true the difference is minor- maybe a few horsepower- but this is apparently enough to tip the balance of things out of its favour.
I can understand that, too. If what you have in mind for your project is a real road-munching beast, then why would you knowingly buy an underpowered head, even if it's a meagre few horses.

However, let's be honest- the 2TG in general is an incredible and tough little engine, but if you're truly serious about power and are looking to do things such as push past 200hp at the wheels and bend the space/time continuum in your little Celica rocket- then the 2TG isn't the engine for you.
For the 95% of us who don't have the money to turn a 2TG into a panty wetting intergalactic record breaker- there are far more cost effective engine options to achieve incredible power figures in a Celica.
My point is that when you choose a 2TG, you're choosing good old fashioned fun. It's tough, it's reliable, it sounds great; but it's no F22C1. And that's completely fine with me


The funny thing is; before I read into it all I'd assumed that the 262 would be the fastest, the cream of the crop. Not only is it the latest (which, by todays standards usually means better) but it has all the goodies.
Could it be possible that Toyota included all these things to compensate for the possible power loss created by the new chamber design?

Food for thought.
Cheers,
Kingy

[stidnam]

Cams are swapable between the various 2tgs so I would take that out of the equation but there were changes in the cams between the different versions as per below which in conjunction with the CR would explain the differences in power. The double valve springs were available in the 260 head onwards BTW.

88220 head
Cam - 248 degrees duration, 9.82mm lift
Power - 115ps @ 6400rpm

88222 head
Cam - 256 degrees duration, 10.27mm lift
Power - 115-125ps @ 6400rpm

88260 head
Cam -
Power - 110ps @ 6000rpm

88261 head
Cam -
Power - 115ps@6000rpm

88262 head
Cam - 256 or 244 degrees (for 8.4:1 pistons), 240 degrees (for 9:1 pistons). I am a bit dubious as to how true these values are as looking at the toyota parts manual there was only one part number for the cams and the pistons. Take with a grain of salt.
Power - 115ps @ 6000rpm

There are changes to the 262 head (for weight/cost saving?) that appear to be a step backwards such as the strengthening around the head bolt area that you can see on the 261 head which is not present in the 262 head.

261 head


262 head

[king-szeitszam]

Great information there stidnam thanks- I haven't seen those camshaft and power figures before.
Is there a specific reason the 222 head has 10ps on all the others?

So the fact that the head bolts aren't reinforced in the 262 would actually contradict the speculation that it could be a good turbo charging option?

[BrianGT]

I'll let you know how we get on with my mates 2TGTEU. It has std pistons but a 3T crank and he called me last nite and said "It runs!" The carbs are just drip fed at the moment so it's not fit for the road yet but I'll keep you posted.
Brian

[king-szeitszam]

Brian- is he using larger carbies with the increased capacity?
I haven't heard of a carburettor fed hybrid before, but I guess I don't really read into it very often.

I have managed to find a 3T crank and earlier bare head online. If I can source parts for it I may consider swapping the 262 for it.
Has your mate mentioned how much work was involved swapping the crank out? If there's no boring involved then is it simply a matter of swapping the pistons and the crank?

I realise there's many threads on this- but while I've got you here..

[river]

Hi,

Those power figures, with the various models, is not just due to a different head. The compression ratio was dropped and, in the carby versions, more anit-pollution kit was stuck onto the carbies. So, it's a few things - not jsut the head - that helps lower the power and save baby seals.

If you're turboing, the latest heads are always the best as they have the better/more efficient shape and flow, bigger valves, dual springs and (usually) lower compression pistons.

Personally, for me, if I was staying stock, I'd go for the earliest engines. The heads were not as good as the later units, but they had the most power, highest CR and also the most agressive cams.

seeyuzz
river

[king-szeitszam]

Hi,

Those power figures, with the various models, is not just due to a different head. The compression ratio was dropped and, in the carby versions, more anit-pollution kit was stuck onto the carbies. So, it's a few things - not jsut the head - that helps lower the power and save baby seals.

If you're turboing, the latest heads are always the best as they have the better/more efficient shape and flow, bigger valves, dual springs and (usually) lower compression pistons.

Personally, for me, if I was staying stock, I'd go for the earliest engines. The heads were not as good as the later units, but they had the most power, highest CR and also the most agressive cams.

seeyuzz
river

Thanks for the clarification- clears that up for me.

So could I interpret that as meaning.. because my 2TG runs EFI ITB's not carbies, has SFA anti-pollution/emissions gear on it and is a gratuitous fuel guzzler in general- it should make close, if not the same power figures as other 2TG's with similar modifications?

If I remember correctly thetoyman75's Unicorn engine was a 262 hybrid was it not? As has been made clear this means the pistons would have been custom jobbies obviously. But I'm wondering why- with the reputation the 88262 seems to have- that particular head was picked? Was it simply a matter of availability?
I think I actually took down the specs of that engine for reference for future projects of mine, it was a very, very nice example.


Of course the cost of going custom can be avoiding by sourcing an earlier head, I'm just wondering if there's any unique value to the 88262 since it's a bit different.

Cheers

[BrianGT]

Brian- is he using larger carbies with the increased capacity?
I haven't heard of a carburettor fed hybrid before, but I guess I don't really read into it very often.

I have managed to find a 3T crank and earlier bare head online. If I can source parts for it I may consider swapping the 262 for it.
Has your mate mentioned how much work was involved swapping the crank out? If there's no boring involved then is it simply a matter of swapping the pistons and the crank?

I realise there's many threads on this- but while I've got you here..

If you have a 2TGEU engine then you have in fact got what is a 3T block so a 3T crank fits perfectly.

The very early 2T blocks (I think prior to late 72) had to have some of the crankcase removed to allow the bigger 3T crank journals to turn without fouling....not in your case.

I use Dellorto 45's and my mate will be using Dellorto 40's......

I have to go to work now so more details of the build later.
Brian

[king-szeitszam]

If you have a 2TGEU engine then you have in fact got what is a 3T block so a 3T crank fits perfectly.

The very early 2T blocks (I think prior to late 72) had to have some of the crankcase removed to allow the bigger 3T crank journals to turn without fouling....not in your case.

I use Dellorto 45's and my mate will be using Dellorto 40's......

I have to go to work now so more details of the build later.
Brian

I did read that about the crank- thank God for small blessings! As I understand it though the 3T pistons will work with the 2TG conronds (not 262 version obviously) but still need to be flycut to fit? Or have I mixed that up now.. I've been reading way too many threads with contradictory information on this..

I have been wondering about throttle body size. I see you've gone 45's- people often say this is too much and makes the car run like a dog low down. I have read your build thread and this doesn't appear to be the case with your engine- but you've done a fair amount of work to it!

The reason I raise this is because I'm in the process of ordering 45mm DCOE pattern throttle bodies from a company called Dbilas in Germany (my family is German). I have been slightly worried about the size of the TB's and that they'll produce the same issues that others have experienced with their carburettors- or is this apples and oranges?
Without really having a clue, I ordered the 45's simply because I've seen a few other builds on here with either 4AGE TB's made to fit (they're 45mm) or DCOE pattern 45mm's from Injection Perfection or EFI Hardware or something.