Engine swap legalities and driving on P's. In SOUTH AUS.

[Skobb]

Got an ST160 Carina ED here (1986 model I think) which is pretty much a celica chassis with different panels. I'm wanting to prepare myself for an engine swap in the near future as this particular model comes with the 1S-iLU 1.8L 77kw engine and it's quite rare in Australia, so I'm thinking parts will be hard to find (it's also pretty weak so I'm looking for something else).
Other Carina EDs came from factory with a 2 litre 3S-GE. This may have been a year or 2 after my car was manufactured.. Will this affect the rule I'm about to state??
In NSW and Vic I've found some docs that indicate an engine swap does not need an engineering certificate if it was a factory option for this car.


Questions relating to not needing an engineer's cert: Please state if your answers are concerning laws in South Australia or not!

1: If the engine wasn't offered in my car until 1 year after mine was manufactured, even though everything in the car remained the same in that later year - Is it fine?
2: Can I put in a 3S-GE from the mid 90s? (As I suspect any engine I get from 1986 will have 200k km + on it)
3: Will I be allowed to drive the car on my P plates? I've heard a few people in NSW say that if the engine swap does not require engineering, then it is fine to drive on your P's.

Think that's about it.. Any advice greatly appreciated!

Car catalogues on Catalogue Au don't help about this issue that much.

[Skobb]

Just so I can keep track of things.. I've found some relative docs that apply to SA laws.
Very extensive info bulletin covering ADR aspects.
Supposedly the Category 1 Approved Engine Change List, but doesn't tell you much.
A page on SA Transport site.

From what I've gathered.. This quote from the Category 1 list sums it up:
"That the engine does not have a greater displacement volume than an engine available as an option for the
vehicle and that the braking system is the same as that fitted by the vehicle manufacturer for the engine
concerned."

And a quote from the Info Bulletin regarding the Category 1 list:
"Engine changes to
vehicles included on this list; require no prior approval or inspection."


So........ As long as I put in ANY engine that has a displacement no more than the 2.0L 3S-GE and appropriate brakes the car should be fine without any prior approval. AFAIK I'd just need to go get the engine number registered to the vehicle.
The documents don't mention 'year of manufacture', only 'the vehicle'.. Which is very vauge, but I think (hope) it would be fine.


I still don't have an answer to my question about driving the car on my P's though.... Surely there are plenty of people on their P's that have had to replace an engine with a different one to that of what they were pulling out due to availability?

[oldcorollas]

call SA transport today and ask?

were the brakes upgraded with the 3SG option?
is the power more than 10-15% increase?

was your car available for sale in Australia?
if not, then the "largest engine available as option" may not apply, since that relates to the australian market, and there were no cars OR engine options for sale here.
maybe you can argue Carina=Celica, but still probably need to be certified

you could just drive with the 1S until your P's expire?

Re: SA restrictions, go to High-powered vehicle restrictions sections here
http://www.mylicence.sa.gov.au/p1_plater

would a 3SGE be an "essential modification/replacement"?
seems it could easily be considered an increase in engine performance, particularly when 2Sengines could be sourced..
but maybe SA transport will see the sense in improved emissions?

[scottreichstein]

Just do the engine swap and then go into motor reg and change the engine number over to the new one
the police wouldn't even look twice with a 4 cyl non turbo that looks factory.in the engine bay
My mate did this with his rotor conversion and hasn't had an issue

[Skobb]

@oldcorollas: Are you sure that that relates only to the ADM? It sort of makes sense, but I don't remember reading it anywhere.
I found this link and even though I can't make sense of the 'grades', it would seem that the 1s-iLU equipped Carina came with rear drum brakes, and the 3S-GE came with rear disks..
From what I can gather, it should be fine as long as I stick the rear disk brakes on (assuming the fronts for both cars are the same)?
This of course being that I don't have to modify the chassis.. I'm unsure where the laws stand on upgrading brakes.. I *hope* that I wouldn't need engineering for the brakes.

I believe the 10-15% thing is an East Coast law, and it's referring to displacement which (forgive me if I'm horribly wrong) refers to the cc of the engine and not the power output?

I just sent Transport SA a detailed e-mail, I hope I don't get a stupid reply from somebody who knows nothing about cars or the laws in which they're supposed to be knowledgeable on. lol


@scottreichstein: Yeah, I just don't have the money to get the car engineered so what I'm trying to find out is if I can get around that.
I've heard that you can lose your licence for driving a modified car while you have these 'high-powered' vehicle restrictions on you.. Seems like a huge risk even though 95% of cops won't know the difference.

[thriller]

Call up transport SA, they're normally reasonably helpful.

Side note, the quote about displacement means natural displacement right? I can't find any documents saying a turbocharger increases 'legal' displacement... And if the 10-15% power thing doesn't apply in S.A. I guess technically a 1jz in my old m powered cressy just requires an engine number swap


If it were me, and I will be doing this later, I'd just have a crack at going to service SA center, going to a counter which has some ditz blonde serving, ask them to change your engine number. Engineering in S.A. is a farce and is incredibly expensive. If you're going to go about asking them "are you sure this is all I need to do? Don't need to get it engineered do I?" it'll send alarm bells ringing for them and they'll double check or something with a tight arse superior.


Also technically speaking you need a regency inspection for any modifications you do to brakes.
Unfortunately, doing everything by the book is hard to impossible, and a power hungry copper will still bend you over if it's 100% a-ok freshly engineered.


also plz post email response up here

[oldcorollas]

re ADM, your car was never compliant for the Austrlaian market.. has never beenshown to meet ADR's, was never sold in this market.
because of that, the "largest engine available for that model" has no meaning, because your model was never even for sale here, letalone with different engine choices...

and yeah, safety or emissiosn things should be engineered, but it's different in SA.. something in the water
ie, seems hardly anyone ever bothers to get mods engineered.. probably because there is no roadworthy inspection every year?

anyway, you did aks about legality.. nto what everyone actually does

but do remember that if you have an accident, especially on your P's, and have mods that you are not supposed to and are not complied (and can be argued they contributed to accident).. then your insurance may decide not to pay out... which could mean a substantial bill if you hurt someone/an expensive car
ie, non-roadworthy/approved car = uninsured..... and just because many people ignore that, doesn't mean you should too

[Skobb]

Alright.. I got a reply. Not a compete idiot (yay), but he still doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.. Considering he says that my car isn't on the Category 1 list.. The category 1 list specifies ALL cars where the intended engine replacement meets the criteria... Maybe he is getting confused with the 'Automotive Instructions' which lists a bunch of old Holdens, and pre-83 Celicas.. Unless he is referring to the car being JDM and therefore not applicable, in which case he should be more specific.

Reading back on the info bulletin now that I'm not half asleep, I noticed this: "The Category 1 Approved Engine Change List specifies acceptable alternative engines where no major
mechanical changes to the vehicle, such as upgrading of the braking system are required. Engine changes to vehicles included on this list; require no prior approval or inspection."
After thinking about how the brake mods would probably need engineering over the past few days, I'm lead to believe that the section in the Cat. 1 list about needing the same brakes as the engine you're putting in refer to them already being on the car..
So I'm a bit confused as to what to do now if my engine breaks down beyond repair.. I think I'm going to ask him if a 2L engine would be fine if it came from a car with front discs and rear drums.. So something like the 3S-FE from the SV21 Camry, because looking at the S-Engine list on wiki not many Aus cars came with a 1.8L S-Engine.

"Scott,

As this vehicle is not on the Category 1 list an application would have to be submitted for the modification and as you are not fitting a identical replacement engine the vehicle would be classified as a modified vehicle and not be eligible to be driven by a Provisional licence holder.

To go ahead with the modification there is an application form that has to be submitted detailing the vehicle and the proposed modifications. A copy is attached.

Once you submit the application it will be assessed and a Statement of Requirements issued for the modifications. This will list the vehicle, the modifications and any conditions that are applicable. This could be include brake or suspension upgrades and if there is substantial increase in power or torque, a report from a Chartered Professional Engineer addressing the modifications and results of brake and handling testing in addition to body strength testing or evaluation.

Once you have the Statement of Requirements you can precede with the modifications and once they are completed and the engineering reports completed, if required, you have to ring and book the vehicle for a roadworthiness inspection. Once that had been passed the vehicle can be registered with the modifications and a Certificate of Exemption issued.

The current cost of the inspection is $257 and any cost associated with an engineering report would have to be negotiated with the engineer of your choice.

An application form can be downloaded at
. http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/...%20Vehicle.pdf

If you require any further information please let me know."

[oldcorollas]

he'd be right tho..
since your car was never sold here, it doesn't comply with ADR's, and would not be included on the list.
mainly because they have no information on it, since never sold here...
if it was sold here, it would be on the list, with engine changes for it that don't require certifying.

i'd be asking what engines are on that list for the equivalent celica (eg ST162?) and then asking them for approval to do one of those swaps, and still be legal for P's.

Notwithstanding Clause 1, the fitting of a larger capacity engine to vehicles tabled in the Category 1 Approved Engine
Change List issued by Transport SA, varied or substituted from time to time is permitted and subject to the following:
2.1. That the engine fitted meets the requirements of Clause 1, Conditions 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 and 1.9.

etc etc..

so there are exceptions. and the car being very similar to aus sold model, and 1S and 2S engines being hard to find, could allow for a 3SFE to be fitted... maybe even 3SG (or later 3SG with less issues)
??
you've probably seen this? http://www.transport.sa.gov.au/pdfs/...rs_vans_01.pdf
brakes already on the car need to be the same as the higher engine spec model.

[Skobb]

Yeah that's what I'm going to try argue when the need arises.
I just received another reply and although I still need some solid clarification, my mind has been eased a bit now.

The Category 1 list is a list of specific popular cars and replacement engines that do not need inspection due to the slight increase in power etc. The list does not cover all vehicles only particular ones where engine swap is a common one, such as early Corollas fitting of a 4K engine in place of the 3K.

Our understanding of the legislation regard Provisional licence requirements is that you cannot fit a larger engine, a engine with higher power output or modify an engine, induction or exhaust system.

If the original engine replacement is not available and the only option is to fit a different engine then you would have to make a written application the Registrar of Motor Vehicles at DPTI, GPO Box 1533, Adelaide 5001. You would need to supply information on the vehicle, the original engine and the intended replacement engine and include verification of the unavailability of a direct replacement engine.

(completely forgot about proper quoting until I saw you do it lol)

[litldv8]

Our understanding of the legislation regard Provisional licence requirements is that you cannot fit a larger engine, a engine with higher power output or modify an engine, induction or exhaust system.

is this kind of like arguing that i am only .05 bac but the limit is still only .05
the law is what it is
how many more years do you have to drive with your p's

[maj]

Without quoting the book, it seems to me you have the following two hurdles if you want to swap to a 3SGE like later model Carina's:

1. You are increasing displacement from a 1.8 to a 2.0L

2. You are looking to convert rear drum to disc brakes.

Even if your vehicle did not comply to ADR's, for it to be registered in the first place it would have been certified that it met all requirements for ADR depending on the year it was made, but by an equivalent overseas authority. Any change you make to the car will need to be under the same guidelines.

If you wanted to persue the "engine is rare and hard to service" along with "later model chassis included a more readily available engine and brake setup, all bolt in", you will probably still need to submit a written application which they might be lenient and give you an easy statement of requirements. This will probably still need engineering unless you omit the stuff about disc brakes and get lucky.

The other way is the standard route and will cost you a bundle by the sounds of it in SA. I won't bother mentioning any illegitimate avenues.

It almost seems more logical to me to find a better Carina with a 3SGE, or just stick with what you have.

[Skobb]

Got a longgg time left on my P's lol..

What I am saying is that if you can prove that a original engine cannot be located then write to the Registrar to see if you can get an exemption from your licence requirements to allow you to drive the vehicle with a non standard engine. It may be approved or it may not, I can't say, but it may be another avenue to investigate.

If approved an application would have to be submitted so a Statement of Requirements can be issued and thena vehicle inspection would be required. A report from a engineer would not be necessary.

I guess we'll have to see if I fall in love with the car or not as to whether or not I end up getting the engine replaced when I have the money/need to replace it.
As long as I know now that it should be fine if I decide to pursue that path, I'm happy.

Haha the Carina seems to be a pretty hard car to find in Aus as I've found virtually nothing on google.. If I was importing I'd rather get one of the later 4WD models.. But either way, that's a longgg way off considering import costs

[maj]

If you get the car for cheap enough and shop around on importers, you'd probably find the cost isn't too far off what you might originally spend on the car + 3SGE conversion if it requires engineering.

Always remember cars like the Carina's are for looking cool and cruising, not for speed, so as long as it has a nice torque band for your daily driving (i.e. doesn't get too bogged down around corners or traffic lights), just enjoy it and look after it well. Remember originality is sometimes rarer than uniqueness when it comes to classic Toyota's.