Noob questions about aftermarket turbo installation on NA motor

[wagonist]

I'm looking doing a turbo conversion on an NA engine.
Previously, I've only ever had factory turbo engines, or done engine swaps to a factory turbo setup.

Just trying to figure out in my head how to do some things, and then some ball park costing.

Engine is a 2L twin-cam, but FE type head and some kind of variable timing on the inlet, east west mounted FWD with the exhaust on the front.
Possibility that the factory management can be reprogrammed.
Not sure if the injectors need upgrading or not.
Not aiming for bulk power, but prefer torque. Previous done examples have about 150kW (not sure if that's engine or flywheel), but's fine by me.

Parts I think I need:
Manifold (sorted)
turbo (garrett type flange to meet up with manifold), but not sure about size
oil feed and return lines
coolant feed & return line
dump pipe, piping, intercooler, ...
(Have I missed anything?)

Most of it is straight forward but my biggest query is how to do the oil/coolant feed/return lines seeing as the engine isn't designed for this.
The sump is a full alloy setup with ribbing like a heatsink.
The water pump is on the exhaust side of the engine with a pipe running across the block as the thermostat is on the gearbox end.

Any advice/help appreciated.

[fixeruperer]

youll need a piggy back ecu, some ecu's can be flash tuned most cant. some ecu's even allow for a little boost, you may even just have to pump up the fuel pressure. youll have to find out what injectors you have, what they flow and what they can work with.

the only difference between a turbo motor and n/a besides stronger parts, its the cam timing, compression and fuel/ignition tuning.

slap the turbo on and and re tune it for low boost, it should be a good thing. if there is another stock straight through inlet manifold you can fit, maybe look into that.


oil lines, just tee into the oil pressure gallery, with the drain, you need to put the drain in the most upper spot on the sump ( so the oil doesnt stop it from flowing)

the water galleries, just tee into the flow of the system. pressure one side, suction the other.

[Supra967]

Look at SR20 factory turbo?

Fueling will be biggest issue with EFi. Make sure the stock regulator can handle boost, i.e increase pressure more than an atmo engine. If not get an adjustable one for that 'tuning' ability, cheap enough anway.

good advice above on oil and water. Apart from that, just know your limits, if you slap it on for a couple of hunderd bucks, don't expect F1 performance

[shrike]

What engine is it?

I can give more info once I know

You need a wideband O2 sensor to check afrs

Factory ecu may see boost

youll need to run a oil feed and return + water lines if the turbo is water cooler

obviously an intercooler (lower charge temp to reduce chance of det)

theres a few ways to do this main issue is controlling low boost (can you run an external wastegate?)

If car is an FE and runs say 91 a good way to get a richer mix to start with before you add boost is to run it on 95-98octane and then read the afr with your wideband and add boost to bring the afr down

you can also increase the fuel mix with bigger injectors (note the best way to get a go increase is by a tune)

plus you can always retard the timing if its pinging

[SHEPPO3930]

Plenty of NA+T builds out there and going strong as long as you know the limits of the engine internals. Chances are you wont be the first one to have turbo'd the motor you're planning, thus there will be info on the subject out there.

What engine are you thinking of turbo'ing?

[jonathan yee]

some people use a tee fitting off the head where the oil pressure sensor is for oil feed for the turbo. i don't like the idea of drilling into the block and tapping if the engine isnt stripped and cleaned.

for drain you'll have to tap into the sump some how.

if you have a water-oil cooler, prob easy enough to tap into those lines for cooling the turbo.

[wagonist]

It's a 2.0 Elantra engine that is going into my Excel.
Already had to change the fuel rail to a return type, so used a WRX pressure reg.
The Excel pump is a common size so that's easily upgradable.

Oil pressure switch is on the front (exhaust side) of the block, have to look into how hard it will be to drill & tap the sump (it's alloy, not thin steel plate).

[Duk]

The ECU has nothing to do with its ability to 'see' boost! That's the job of the load sensor.
If it's an air flow meter, it may be able to measure and give an appropriate signal for the higher air flow rates of an added turbo. At least up until the point where it reaches its peak, which won't be very high 'cause the car manufacturer wants maximum resolution from their sensors and injectors, too. IE, there probably won't be much head room in either the load sensor or the injectors.
Same said for MAP sensors. Some can measure a bit of positive pressure, but it probably won't be much.
If you run out of sensor range, the computer won't know that the engine is working at higher loads and can only deliver injector open times and ignition timing based on its highest load figure. A bigger AFM (or a bypass around the original with tuning to suit) or a MAP sensor that can work with positive manifold pressure will be required for accurate load sensing.

The key to adding forced induction, will always be having total control (fuel and ignition) of the engine. Plus, keeping exhaust back pressure and inlet air temperatures as low possible.
If you can't or don't want to remap the original computer, you will need to use an interceptor tuner. Use an interceptor tuner that modifies the injector open times rather than 1 that fudges the main load sensor signal.

[fixeruperer]

what year elantra ? the early ones ran a 4g63 motor, which is the mitsi evo/lancer motor.

edit. my bad, remembered you said it had variable inlet. it might be the g4gc motor.

i have no idea what those engines are like outside their boundaries.

[oldcorollas]

why would you not bolt in a turbo motor? engine mounts too different?

[wagonist]

Elantra is an 04 model. mid 90s was when Hyundai stopped using Mitsubishi stuff. It uses a hotwire airflow meter which is a slightly smaller diameter than the inlet piping & throttle body.
Just for info, the early Lantras used the 4G93 1.8L.

I've just finished fitting the Elantra gearbox into the car (currently mated to the 1.5L Excel engine), because it has 3 of the 4 engine mounts. The rear mount swapped exactly, the front Excel mount bolted on but I had it modified to use all 4 of the Elantra bolts, and the top Excel gearbox mount used 2 of the 3 Elantra bolts. The "engine" mount is going to be full custom, but that was going to be the case no matter what engine I installed.
And I've also just fitting a brand new Quaife LSD (Mistubishi Eclipse part) to the box which required customised driveshafts.

The place which has the cast exhaust manifold has said they can reprogram the factory ECU, but apparently its a bit temperamental.

Was kind of hoping that the 4G63 would fit to the Elantra gearbox, but no such luck.

Also, I'm not aiming for bulk power. Half of my events this year have been on dirt/grass, and might be starting to do khanacross. So too much power will just be wasted in wheelspin.
This still might be the case, so I'm still evaluating whether to do this or not.

I'd also tried dummying up a SC14 off a 1GGZE where the A/C compressor was. But the room isn't really there for it on the back side of the engine.
At least that could've had a switched to turn it off for launches.

[oldcorollas]

50hp giggle gas?

[wagonist]

That's banned in everything bar Drag racing isn't it.
Not sure that I would trust mounting that kind of system in a rally car either.
There's a reason that I've got $3k worth of struts installed.

[thechuckster]

aftermarket ECU, don't bother with a piggyback or trying to reflash a factory ECU. Map sensored ECU a must and also PWM-controlled boost solenoid (for boost control). Adaptronic, Megasquirt, as starters, then work your way up the price foodchain (autronic, link, haltech, motec, ...)

Can you fit a water-to-oil oil-cooler (as found on the Subaru and 3SGTE/5SFE motors)? Keeps oil at coolant temps and warms it up quicker.

smallish compressor to get on boost at fairly low RPMs (being an FE-style motor, it'll will have been designed with a torque curve starting to climb from fairly low revs) and a wastegate that'll flow plenty. This allows you to start out with low levels of boost as well as tuning the ECU before lifting boost levels and attendant risk.

If this concept is about using cheap disposable motors, consider the same for turbos?

Coolant supply to come from the bypass hoses that feed to/from the cabin heater. Cold side from the pumped end, and the return will be the pipe that would normally come back from the cabin.

Oil supply from either the pressure switch, or, if you have the peso, drill into the main oil gallery that feeds the main bearings and fit a 1/4 BSP fitting. I would only do this if you are running a restrictor at the oil supply at the turbo. It might be worth rebuilding the oil pump if the motor is out and grind off any sharp edges that are in the oil flow post-pump. Don't bother shimming up the oil-pressure relief valve - you want oil flow/volume not excessive pressure.

bigger injectors (if the ECU is half-decent, it won't matter if they are hi or low Z). You will need the flow and you don't want to run the factory items at really high duty levels to keep AFRs below 12:1 when on high boost.

Given that you'll have varying road speeds, water-spray on the intercooler should be considered. Can/should be ECU controlled and if you develop the car more, put more smarts in the controlling of the sprayer (e.g. spray when MAP >100kpa and/or IAT > 60degrees and/or TPS >75% etc. rather than a simple spray when on boost). A 20 litre reservoir under/behind the navigator seat as found in the Group Np Corollas. You can also build in boost control rules (e.g. limit boost to 9psi if spray water empty and IAT above a defined limit).

Thick core intercooler (e.g. 75 or 100mm thick) - craig's TA64 rally car runs a smallish intercooler but it's a thick item and any air that runs thru it passes a shitload of fins. It apparently works bloody well.

2 fans on the radiator? One manualised, the other controlled by the ECU.

As you have a semi-glass gearbox, an ECU that can accept a speed signal could also do some boost control (e.g. minimal boost until road speed > 60kph or with more smarts/budget have a boost level per gear as you can work out what gear you are in based on road speed and rpm).

Most ECUs can also do some wheelspin (traction) control but this might be counter-productive in a rally car when you have a shitload of driven-wheel slip.

Consider a refreshed motor before doing this - a turbo will put a lot of strain on an already tired engine.

Put a low-fluid warning sensor on the radiator somehow. This thing will pump out a lot more heat and you want to know when the system has chucked its guts - not when the head has cracked from running right out of water.

btw, isn't there some guys doing 13s for $1300 with Hyundais? See PF for more info?
(edit: nearly right, a Daewoo Nubira and a Hyundai Excel)

and... considered keeping the AC? Have seen a few guys at NDSCC events keeping the AC on during events - sounds hilarious but at the end of a furious stage, you're not cooked.

...

still keen on the idea


edit: will a larger dump/exhaust fit underneath the motor? And can you do some clever stuff like shift the radiator to the boot? and and oil cooler on the gearbox (as found in the GT4?)