Aftermarket ecu installation questions. (7mgte)

[kemicalx]

Hi all,

I've been installing the EMS Dualsport i picked up a while back into my MZ21 and have a couple of things i'm snagged on.

First thing is the wiring of the cam positon sensor, the standard CPS (from what i can understand) has a ground "N-", "NE" which i think is the sync? And then the two pickups "G1" and "G2"

I have the wiring diagram that came with the EMS but i still can't understand what should be wired to what, any assisstance would be great

7mgte CPS


EMS CPS wiring diagrams



Also, I'm wondering if, when tuning a car for the first time I can set the ignition timing to a base figure for the intire rev range, then once i have tuned the afr's at each of the rev load points i can start adjusting the timing from the base setting at each of the rpm load points.

Is there any chance of damage running a base time across the whole rev range?

it'll be on a 7mgte and i was thinking of setting it to run 12 degrees.

Cheers everyone.

[The Witzl]

G1 and G2 are the two "reference" triggers that tell the ECU where the engine is up to in it's cylce so that it knows which coil pack to fire.

NE is the 24-tooth wheel that provides the cam position or cam speed signal.


As for which one the EMS wants for what - that's dependant on what EMS want to call them - those diagrams do little to explain what the EMS means by their terms "Sync" and "Trigger" signals.

check out norbie's Haltech thread, and other threads asking about variable reluctance signals that i've posted in..... i've posted shitloads of info on this topic.

[The Witzl]

here's one example - http://www.toymods.net/forums/showth...ble+reluctance

[kemicalx]

Cheers mate am i going to need to get a crank angle sensor? I presumed the standard CPS would be adequate?

[chris davey]

CPS = crank position sensor
CAS = crank angle sensor

Aren't they the same thing?

re flat timing curve. I wouldn't do that as not enough timing will cause the flame to be exiting via exhaust valves and getting some very high EGT's (which could be confused with lean AFR's unless you have a wideband o2)

I would set the timing to go from 10 to 15 at idle, steadily increase to 35 by by 3000-3500rpm. But when boost comes in retard timing so that at about 10 psi you are running around 15deg. If you do a search, Charles (chuckester) posted up a little reference thing that said how many degrees of retard per kpa (think it was .3).

Hope that makes sense. That is what I plan to do. Set a safe timing map, tune fuel to 12:1 or so. Then advance the timing bit by bit with knock detection.

[kemicalx]

thanks alot mate, yep i have a wideband o2 sensor, and you ignition susgestion is very similar to the map already loaded onto the EMS, which apparently suits a 7mgte. I'm just concerned about using it incase it is wrong for my engine.

CPS = cam postion sensor, and from what i read in one of the threads witzl linked they can give an inaccurate reading of where the crank is. I figured as thats what it uses form factory it wouldn't have been a problem.

[chris davey]

Does the EMS use a base timing map and then adjustments by boost? Or is a full matrix table with rpm and boost and you have to work out when it is coming on boost?

THe latter is how Wolf does it and I found that a bit difficult (because of no datalogging on wolf)

The former is how microtech does it and by the sounds of it will be a lot easier especially as it has datalogging

[kemicalx]

mmm i think it adjusts by boost, however you only can set AFR's and timing at -50kpa 0kpa and 50kpa, it adjusts everything else above and below that pressure automatically, then allows you to slightly adjust load points that are out of the -50kpa to +50kpa range with what they call the "curve modifier" section in the software.

Also, it can data log so i will be able to see where abouts corrections need to be made.

[chris davey]

Oh yeah, I remember the software you put up. I don't really understand but as long as you do that is all that matters

[The Witzl]

and from what i read in one of the threads witzl linked they can give an inaccurate reading of where the crank is. I figured as thats what it uses form factory it wouldn't have been a problem.

dont get me wrong - the CAS in the 7mgte is perfectly fine to use as your ignition timing control with your EMS. What i was referring to in that other post was that if you have the choice, going for a crank trigger is MORE accurate as you dont have the play/give associated with timing belt/timing chain and gears....

CPS = cam position sensor

yes, but in toyota (and common) terms, the CAS is the same thing. Its the dissy type thing that is bolted to your head thats driven off the camshaft.


What you need to work out is what is the definition of the EMS terms:
SYNC Signal
TRIGGER Signal

ie. what signals are the above expecting?
.... one should be expecting the multitooth "Ne" type signal, and the other should be expecting the occasional "G1/G2" position-reference signal. I just dont know which is which, and I dont have an EMS manual handy to find out either!

[JustCallMeOrlando]

going for a crank trigger is MORE accurate as you dont have the play/give associated with timing belt/timing chain and gears....

How much of this can you quantify though? Then there is the flipside, whats the point of super accurate ignition (real or placebo) if the events you're trying to time them to are being timed by the belt!?

[kemicalx]

What you need to work out is what is the definition of the EMS terms:
SYNC Signal
TRIGGER Signal

ie. what signals are the above expecting?
.... one should be expecting the multitooth "Ne" type signal, and the other should be expecting the occasional "G1/G2" position-reference signal. I just dont know which is which, and I dont have an EMS manual handy to find out either!

Cheers mate,

This is from the .pdf manual I found, and is in reference to the engine setup screen in the software

TRIGGER SENSOR TYPE
Signals from Optical, Hall or Magnetic sensors can be used to trigger the computer on the trigger circuit or the sync circuit. In
the SETUP the pages “TRIGGER”, “SYNC”, “TRIGGER EDGE” & “SYNC EDGE” will appear.
TRIGGER SENSOR
The trigger sensor page can be selected to “MAGNETIC”, “HALL\OPTICAL” this allows the computer to be triggered by any
one of these sensor, By using the up or down arrow buttons and entering to save your selection.
SYNC SENSOR
The sync sensor can be selected the same way as the trigger sensor, this sensor is only required if sequencing of coils or
injectors are required.
TRIGGER EDGE
The trigger edge determines whether the computer is triggered by the positive or negative edge of the trigger signal. The
computer can be triggered by either edge, using the up & down arrow buttons and entering the appropriate edge.

Current Engine setup screen

[The Witzl]

meh.... it's a point of semantics. Who really cares?

EDIT: above is comment to JCMF


Ok..... well then Ne becomes your Trigger signal, and one or other of the G1/G2 signals is your SYNC signal

[chris davey]

Umm, isn't that the same all the time? That is what I just had to do for my 1jz and microtech.

[kemicalx]

lovely the CPS being the last sensor that needs to be wired up before all the engine wiring is done means i may just hear this thing kick over tonight

Any suggestions for a dry engine turnover? also do you guys think everything in that engine setup screen looks ok? All the trigger/sync edge stuff