20V ITBs on 86kW 4AGE; replace / Modify 86kW Dizzy with 100kW Dizzy / CAS?

[GeeEss]

According to a couple of posts on Club 4AGE & elsewhere you won't (if running 86kW 4AGE / OE Ignition / Batch injection ) get the full benefit from ITBs unless you modify / update dizzy / instal CAS . . . . . To allow sequential injection.

Are the results worth the extra cost+hassle? and if so whats the cheapest/ easiest FIX?

[Hen]

I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to, but I think the difference between batch and sequential injection is minimal (and mainly related to emissions). If you were going to change to sequential then you'd need to fit a 20V ECU, all relevant sensors, injectors, rewire, etc, etc. Not worth the hassle at all

From what I've heard trying to get a good MAP signal to the stock 16V ECU can be a problem once you've fitted quads, but there are a few things which may fix this. On the other hand I'd question the point of fitting quads on a stock motor with stock ECU.

Hen

[jondee86]

What Hen says. Putting ITB´s on an otherwise stock bigport, is a crapload of work
for minimal gains. The fuel map in the stock ECU is no longer matched to the flow characteristics
of the throttles, meaning you will get lean AFR´s at certain throttle openings. You will lose the
cold start function, and you won´t have an ISCV.

To make it work the ITB´s need to be part of a package that includes a programmable ECU
(Adaptronic is one reasonably priced option), cams of at least 272 duration with as much lift
as you can squeeze in without going to underbucket shims, TRD or similar high lift valve
springs, and a compression bump to at least 10.5:1

Cheers... jondee86

[mattysshop]

the stock map sensor will run it.. not very well (little over rich)... so there is no problem loosing the cold start function, or ISCV you might just need to play a bit with the throttle when you first start it.. buy the time the engine gets to temp the temp sensor will lean out the mixture a bit, but it will still be a bit rich!

when i converted mine to quads years ago, i did it on a smallport, with a little extra compression, and bigport cams... i'd say that is a bare minimum to see any real benifit..

and i really only noticed a useable increase in power and torque once the adaptronic (or any half decent ecu *cough NOT microtech *) was in there and tuned.. made 118rwhp, not bad for an essentially pretty stock 4AGE... NA

[GeeEss]

Thanks guys; guess I should have given a bit more background info.

1. Bottom End stock; just freshened up with new rings, bearings etc.

2. 1.0mm MLS Gasket (Cometic)

3. Match-Ported (to T3 Adaptor) inlets+ Shaved head (3cc's removed from chambers - I think).

4. Tomei 264 PonCams with uprated Valve-springs

5. FGK AE111 Headers +Fujitsobo pipes + hi-flow CAT

[Quad 82]

Easy answer is you can get it to run on a stock ECU no problems at all. If you want it to run well spend the extra $$ and get an aftermarket ECU and a good tune.

[jondee86]

As said, the factory ECU will run your setup, but neither the fuel or ignition
mapping will be optimised for your modified engine. While it may be possible
to do a bodge tune with a piggyback and an adjustable FPR, to get the best
out of what you have done to date, you need a programmable ECU. If you
plan on tuning the car yourself, you will also need a WBO2 gauge.

Good luck

Cheers... jondee86

[GeeEss]

To be frank I might take a rain-check on putting on the ITB's until I have researched this a bit more. There is too much I just don't know and too much (sometimes conflicting) information I need to analyse. I.e. I purchased an AE101 Fuel Pipe Rail (Part # 23801‑16061); but didn't realise you can't mount them on T3; etc, etc

Another issue is whether the "Eagle" vacuum Chamber I got off T3 will give sufficient vacuum for the MAP sensor; there doesn't seem to be consensus on one tried / tested method / layout, i.e;
i. Drill & tap 4 extra offset holes in T3 Adaptor; this was originally proposed by a guy called "Matty" over 4 years ago (good thread but pictures long gone).
ii. Another suggested opening up existing holes to 5mm, and inserting larger barbs
iii. Another suggested using restrictors in the vacuum lines between the outlets
iv. Another suggested using just one after the outlets / before the chamber
v. bla bla etc etc.

Do any of these suggestions factor in the Vacuum reservoir? I don't know. . .

The other / related reason is of course money. I am just now starting to realise the extent of the additional expense involved in "Quad-ding" a 16V compared with just putting in a 20V 1/2 cut. . . I'm not sure if $600 (Adaptronic) ECU I was banking on will come through and I'm stuffed if I'm going to pay $1500-2000 on top of everything else to buy a new one and have it tuned. I think I'll just hang tight and put a running watch on eBay.

Hopefully once I've got the 4W 02 connected there will be enough feedback for the 86kW ECU to run the thing half decently without getting 10MPG and rooting the Sensor & CAT (please advise if otherwise). . . Further to the above; looking at your post Jondee I googled WBO2 Gauge (first I'd heard of it) and the related info seems to suggest it needs to be used in conjunction with a Wide Band 02 sensor . . . as opposed to 4W I was just about to purchase

It's not just the money; like most people the main reason I'm on these Forums is to ask (sometimes stupid) questions; push my boundaries and hopefully get the satisfaction of doing it myself. . .there's no way I could afford to modify & run a 2nd vehicle for Track work if I'm running to a Tuner all the time.

Anyway, thanks again everyone for your input. Hopefully my Noob questions are helping someone else out there

[mattysshop]

To be frank I might take a rain-check on putting on the ITB's until I have researched this a bit more. There is too much I just don't know and too much (sometimes conflicting) information I need to analyse. I.e. I went and had the AE101 Fuel Pipe Rail (Part # 23801‑16061) re-plated; but didn't realise you can't mount them on T3; etc, etc

Another issue is whether the "Eagle" vacuum Chamber I got off T3 will give sufficient vacuum for the MAP sensor; there doesn't seem to be consensus on one tried / tested method / layout, i.e;
i. Drill & tap 4 extra offset holes in T3 Adaptor; this was originally proposed by a guy called "Matty" over 4 years ago (good thread but pictures long gone).
ii. Another suggested opening up existing holes to 5mm, and inserting larger barbs
iii. Another suggested using restrictors in the vacuum lines between the outlets
iv. Another suggested using just one after the outlets / before the chamber
v. bla bla etc etc.

Do any of these suggestions factor in the Vacuum reservoir? I don't know. . .

The other / related reason is of course money. I am just now starting to realise the extent of the additional expense involved in "Quad-ding" a 16V compared with just putting in a 20V 1/2 cut. . . I'm not sure if $600 (Adaptronic) ECU I was banking on will come through and I'm stuffed if I'm going to pay $1500-2000 on top of everything else to buy a new one and have it tuned. I think I'll just hang tight and put a running watch on eBay.

Hopefully once I've got the 4W 02 connected there will be enough feedback for the 86kW ECU to run the thing half decently without getting 10MPG and rooting the Sensor & CAT (please advise if otherwise). . . Further to the above; looking at your post Jondee I googled WBO2 Gauge (first I'd heard of it) and the related info seems to suggest it needs to be used in conjunction with a Wide Band 02 sensor . . . as opposed to 4W I was just about to purchase

It's not just the money; like most people the main reason I'm on these Forums is to ask (sometimes stupid) questions; push my boundaries and hopefully get the satisfaction of doing it myself. . .there's no way I could afford to modify & run a 2nd vehicle for Track work if I'm running to a Tuner all the time.

Anyway, thanks again everyone for your input. Hopefully my Noob questions are helping someone else out there

Matty is me sorry for the lack of pics the hosting site went under... PM me an email address and i can send you heaps of pics of my setup and hopefully answer every single one of those questions as i have done it before..

[oldeskewltoy]

Thanks guys; guess I should have given a bit more background info.

1. Bottom End stock; just freshened up with new rings, bearings etc.

2. 1.0mm MLS Gasket (Cometic)

3. Match-Ported (to T3 Adaptor) inlets+ Shaved head (3cc's removed from chambers - I think).

4. Tomei 264 PonCams with uprated Valve-springs

5. FGK AE111 Headers +Fujitsobo pipes + hi-flow CAT

Hmmmm, you are not going to gain much besides the sound of ITBs... and if you don't synchronize the throttles, you will be significantly worse off then having a single T/B.

stock bottom end = 9.4 to 1 static CR
1mm gasket - add .2 on the CR, now @ 9.6
How deep a cut was made on the head? Removing 3cc is removing 8% of the chamber. a 33cc head with a static of 9.6 under a 36cc head, will net you about 10.25 as a new static CR under the 33cc head. I assume the block was not machined, so the deck hasn't changed. If I may interject my opinion.... the static CR is still a bit low, especially for 264 cams...(low end of powerband could suffer) To increase the torque, I'd either add the high comp pistons to your engine, or I'd consider a shorter duration camshaft

[thechuckster]

Another issue is whether the "Eagle" vacuum Chamber I got off T3 will give sufficient vacuum for the MAP sensor; there doesn't seem to be consensus on one tried / tested method / layout, i.e;
i. Drill & tap 4 extra offset holes in T3 Adaptor; this was originally proposed by a guy called "Matty" over 4 years ago (good thread but pictures long gone).
ii. Another suggested opening up existing holes to 5mm, and inserting larger barbs
iii. Another suggested using restrictors in the vacuum lines between the outlets
iv. Another suggested using just one after the outlets / before the chamber
v. bla bla etc etc.

i & iii feeding to a small chamber like a small plastic fuel filter before connecting to the MAP sensor would be an ideal solution to smoothing out the map signal from ITBs.

ii would be a retrograde step.

Hopefully once I've got the 4W 02 connected there will be enough feedback for the 86kW ECU to run the thing half decently without getting 10MPG and rooting the Sensor & CAT (please advise if otherwise). . . Further to the above; looking at your post Jondee I googled WBO2 Gauge (first I'd heard of it) and the related info seems to suggest it needs to be used in conjunction with a Wide Band 02 sensor . . . as opposed to 4W I was just about to purchase

4wire sensor would be just as adequate as a 1/2/3 wire sensor - they're all narrowband O2 sensors and produce a 0-1v signal. The only hard bit is wiring it : 2 are the heater and just need IGN power, if it's 3 then the earth is via the engine, if it's 4, the sensor earth has to go back to ECU (sensor earth) or you find the sensor earth in the engine loom and join to it.

If you are interested in getting a wideband sensor, then Innovate or similar sell quite cheap and mostly reliable kits that comprise the sensor & controller plus a gauge. There's no point hooking it up to your ECU unless you have one that knows what to do with a wideband signal that's 0-5V (tho some of the innovate units can be programmed to spit out a narrow-band style of signal on their second output.

[GeeEss]

Thanks for the input Oldeskewl but I don't think my wallet (or head) can deal with R/R of pistons right now. For what its worth I originally specced 0.5mm TRD gasket (which I still have) but the engine builder; after measuring the head & block said that was too thin (can't remember exactly; but I think he said it would turn it into an interference engine). I then suggested 0.8mm TRD but he specced a 1.0mm unit so that's what I got. Splitting hairs - he faced the block removing another 2 thou which is worth about another .05 taking it up to Small port CR of 10.3:1.

Further to the above, I assume this is why I can't just replace head gasket with 0.8mm TRD unit to up the CR ~ 0.2 to 10.5:1 ?

In any case, I just want to set up the ITBs first and get it running as well as I can; maybe further down the track I can look at further modifications.

PS. Just wondering; what, in your opinion would be the minimum CR (10.8?) / max duration (256?) for my set-up?

PPS: Would Octane Booster help WRT low down Torque?

[oldeskewltoy]

Thanks for the input Oldeskewl but I don't think my wallet (or head) can deal with R/R of pistons right now. For what its worth I originally specced 0.5mm TRD gasket (which I still have) but the engine builder; after measuring the head & block said that was too thin (can't remember exactly; but I think he said it would turn it into an interference engine). I then suggested 0.8mm TRD but he specced a 1.0mm unit so that's what I got. Splitting hairs - he faced the block removing another 2 thou which is worth about another .05 taking it up to Small port CR of 10.3:1.

Further to the above, I assume this is why I can't just replace head gasket with 0.8mm TRD unit to up the CR ~ 0.2 to 10.5:1 ?

In any case, I just want to set up the ITBs first and get it running as well as I can; maybe further down the track I can look at further modifications.

PS. Just wondering; what, in your opinion would be the minimum CR (10.8?) / max duration (256?) for my set-up?

PPS: Would Octane Booster help WRT low down Torque?

If I may..... do some research on DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio) using a DCR calculator calculate your DCR. To bump torque some dial in the camshafts so that the intake valve closing event happens earlier (closer to BDC). This adjustment will close the valve a bit sooner, and provide more cylinder pressure.

Octane booster may actually hurt power. IDEALLY you want to run with only enough octane to limit pre-ignition (ping), any more octane will reduce power since higher octane fuels usually have more resistance to ignition than low octane fuel. Higher octane means less chance of ignition do to compression forces/heat, lower octane fuels have less of this additiive to limit ignition till the spark

[mattysshop]

Just to clarify on my part, 6-7 years ago when i first did this conversion, the larger 5mm (i'm actually sure they were 1/4 which is just a bit bigger), were for 2 reasons...

i - to balance out the individual throttles, anyone with an 18rg or 2tg would know how much even a small balance tube helps smoothen idle

ii - brake booster vac

turns out my theory back then was overkill, and using 2 vac gauges i was able to balance the throttles on thier adjustment screws anyway ...

most of this was because i had 18R-G carbs, on a cammed/shaved head 18R.... and it didn't have a balance tube on the custom manifolds, and only had brake booster on the one runner.... it was a PITA to make idle, and the booster was nowhere near like it used to be..

untill i tigged some ally tube on there to make a balance tube/booster feed, these problems were almost non existant


in short - i don't think that quads on that engine would be a waste of time... i had only very basic mods, but started with a smallport '100kw' 16v, reco'ed, 20 thou off the head, .5mm trd gasket, minor porting and thats about it...

saw 8500rpm every day, sounded absolutly fabulous, and was more fun to drive!

[mattysshop]

i would definitly have some sort of small canister to help smoothen out the pulses for the map sensor... that will help immensly...