Wilwoods - worth the coin?

[BLK_20v]

Hey all,

Just been looking into getting a descent brake package for my ae86 and am in 2 minds wether or not to go with something like wilwoods or just get larger rotars / drilled + descent brake pads.

Sure the wilwoods are a larger area and they look pretty with multiple pistons and that, but i've heard from 2 independant brake suppliers that they are not really much of an upgrade over the standard callipers. They based this on the clamping ability of the brake setup and whilst the area of coverage is larger than the standard ones and multiple pistons the are only marginally better. One supplier referred to them as an absolute piece of shit for a multiple piston setup. Normally i'd laugh this off, but after suggesting it was what i wanted, he was prepared to get me a set in but strongly advised against it.

I suggested it was because there was little margin on them and he laughed and said 20 points is still worth my time.

I'm leaning towards getting a larger rotar + pad upgrade vs shelling out for the wilwood kit.. Would i get similar braking performance and the added bonus of not spending double if not tripple on a wilwood kit?

Your thoughts?

[Shakotan_Aaron]

Wilwoods are about the cheapest aftermatket calliper on the market (not counting the 80piston chinese rubbish). They are a definite upgrade, they normally come with 280mm disks? surely stock ae86 is like 256mm? add to that the ADM 86 brakes are solid not even vented. Perhaps there isnt a huge change in the piston area but being that there are multiple pistons the force should be better distributed. Im not really a fan of sliding callipers (what the stock single pot brakes are) they are surposed to be the same force as twin opposing pistons but i dont believe this is true, the pads in my cars have always worn faster on the piston side which means that that side has more pressure and friction meaning the other side isnt working as well as it could.

The willwood callipers are VERY light, they feel like they are made of plastic, its mind blowing how light they are. So these an unsprung weight saving. they are probably less then half the weight of the heavy cast iron stock callipers.

Another popular option is FC/FD 4pots, they probably work out a bit cheaper and you have better pad choice as they are obviously backed by all the big jap brands (project mu, endless etc). The callipers are a fair bit heavier even though they are alloy, probably similar to the stock callipers. Personally id probably go for the FC brakes if i had another corolla.

[trdee]

there are also legality issues with most wilwoods not having dustboots which makes them un-engineerable

[BLK_20v]

Guessing that confirms that outlaying a gorilla on willwoods can be better spent on different items.

[foamy]

By the time you rebuild FC calipers, go and buy decent rotors, pads and the adapters, you may as well just buy the Wilwood kit to begin with. I'm not too sure on how legal caliper adapters are anyway...

[JustenGT8]

not counting the 80piston chinese rubbish

Based on? 4-5 years of faultless track work would suggest you are a little ill informed on this one

[trdee]

By the time you rebuild FC calipers, go and buy decent rotors, pads and the adapters, you may as well just buy the Wilwood kit to begin with. I'm not too sure on how legal caliper adapters are anyway...

plenty engineerable avenues to go down with AE86s. a mate is using falcon GTP brembos on his, and it's engineered

[Shakotan_Aaron]

By the time you rebuild FC calipers, go and buy decent rotors, pads and the adapters, you may as well just buy the Wilwood kit to begin with. I'm not too sure on how legal caliper adapters are anyway...

AE86 is a bit different from some cars, because the bracket for the brake calliper is actually bolted to the body of the strut, so its not like a adaptor which should help with engineering. I spoke to my engineer about brakes and he said no way to adaptors that bolt onto the stock brake mount.

Based on? 4-5 years of faultless track work would suggest you are a little ill informed on this one

Yeah thats cool, i just wouldnt use them on my car. A few years ago i was looking at being a retailer for a taiwan company who will remain nameless. Obviously before id commit to anything id want to do some research into them and the product. While they looked good there where some bad reports with the performance and to some point the quality of the parts, one of which was the 6 or 8 piston callipers. The area of the pistons was tiny, actually smaller then the piston area on the stock brake calliper. Now with a larger disk it would have provided an upgrade, but not from the calliper itself. When I questioned the company about this, they said they where trying to sue the company in the UK who had put out this info. I decided not to sell sub-standard products as i have to sleep at night. Maybe yours are different and maybe they perform well but this is my experience.

[JustenGT8]

No 'maybes' about it thanks mate, and thanks for the implied sledge. I think 5 years of hard work in various disciplines speaks for itself, particularly against some 3rd hand hearsay

As for the technical aspects, you might want to do a bit of caliper 101, as a lower piston area is actually one of the advantages of a fixed caliper versus a floating design.

[BLK_20v]

Lets keep this factual...

Wilwoods were referred to as a shithouse multiple piston calliper by 2 independant brake suppliers. The rotars / pads used were described as an ok product.

Why?

Clamping force of the stock ae86 piston is not that worse off than the willwoods. Buy a bigger rotar + decent pad and be done with it for < half the cost of buying willwoods or if you are going to buy a multiple piston setup avoid wilwoods at all costs.

So to summarise this in a nutshell

Don't buy willwoods, spend the money on larger rotars and good brake pads and what is left over put towards other modifications.

[Shakotan_Aaron]

Okay ill butt out about the chinese callipers now lol.

Buy a bigger rotar + decent pad and be done with it for < half the cost of buying willwoods or if you are going to buy a multiple piston setup avoid wilwoods at all costs.

I mentioned about the weight saving with the Wilwood callipers, Sounds like its a street car so reducing unsprung weight may not be a super high priority.

Also you will need new brackets for the stock callipers and because the calliper is designed for a specific diameter you maybe limited on the actual size of disk you can go. Another even cheaper option maybe just to get struts from another car such as celica or ma61. This would be a much easier way to get it engineered also.

[Fantapants]

Lets keep this factual...

Wilwoods were referred to as a shithouse multiple piston calliper by 2 independant brake suppliers. The rotars / pads used were described as an ok product.

Why?

Clamping force of the stock ae86 piston is not that worse off than the willwoods. Buy a bigger rotar + decent pad and be done with it for < half the cost of buying willwoods or if you are going to buy a multiple piston setup avoid wilwoods at all costs.

So to summarise this in a nutshell

Don't buy willwoods, spend the money on larger rotars and good brake pads and what is left over put towards other modifications.

im not seeing anything FACTUAL in this set of statements at all.

you need to decide how you quantify your "improvements" with regards to brake upgrades. Are you looking to reduce fade with repeated brake usage, or increase physical clamping forces?

If simply increase clamping forces, all you will achieve is more lockups, unless you are running mega sticky rubber.

If looking to reduce the effect of fade, then your "solution" will have limited, if any, improvements.

The facts, if you are actually interested, would be : the wilwood kit is designed to make use of the standard mc. it is not designed in dramatically increase clamping force. It is designed to reduce fade buy supplying a much larger rotor and etc etc etc. Its a nice upgrade over jdm spec 86 stuff, and worlds away from the standard adm stuff. This is a FACT as i have them and have done a heap of comparrisons back to back since the change over. In terms of fade, they are a MASSIVE improvement, even though the standard pads are a bit average. With a step up in pad quality you would REALLY struggle to find fade on regular hills runs or track work unless you are running massive speeds (ie have 200rwkw plus)

The rotors are not great either. Very heavy and the casting looks a little poor. Am investigating better replacement options.

[rsdeo]

BLK-20v, there is a front and rear BBK for the ma6x sold through Raptor Racing using Wilwood calipers. With excellent results.

Front install can be found here.

What is the dimension of the stock caliper mounting points in millimetres for the ae86? Lets go from there.

[Youngy]

If you do decide to go the FC route I think these are worth a look in

AJPS - AE86 - FC Brake Calliper Adapters

Cheers

[Moppitt]

I was talking to a guy that used to work for AP racing (that part is verified - he was the service manager at my old dealer) who argued that the flex in the caliper was much higher for Wilwoods than for many other brands. The consequence of that is a longer pedal and less even force distribution across the pad leading to lock ups at a lower braking force than would otherwise be the case. I can't verify the veracity of the two claims about Wilwoods though.

That being said, if I wasn't worried about the engineering dust-boot issue and had the cash, I'd think very seriously about slapping a set on my car. Sure, they may not be as good as a set of AP's but for less than half the price you're getting a lot more than half the performance. Hell, on a street car on anything less than r-comps I can't imagine you would be able to tell the difference in lap time, especially with a mug like us behind the wheel