RA65 engine conversion ideas

[o_man_ra23]

I'm gonna go on the 5S-GTE bandwagon. The 2.2Ltr bottom end will give great torque, and the head/cam/turbo setup of the 3S-GTE will make her sing properly. Apparently putting the oil squirters from the 3S block into a 5S block isn't that hard. And if beerhead's research is anything to go by, you could get a 5S from a spacia which would make a lot of the hard bits easier... will have to look at using that myself for my RA23

Chuckster, I don't think you are limited to using an engine no older than the car (could be wrong, as I haven't researched this properly), however you will need to comply with the emissions standards of the newer of the car or engine... so it makes putting an older engine in a newer car financially unviable and practically impossible.

[beerhead]

It's a 3SFE on the spacia, but I guess you could just dump the whole thing in a car and boost the crap out of it! . I've got a late 3SFE AWD bottom end and it looks fairly decent inside, pity the intake side mounts are missing because of the center diff.

[thechuckster]

Chuckster, I don't think you are limited to using an engine no older than the car (could be wrong, as I haven't researched this properly), however you will need to comply with the emissions standards of the newer of the car or engine... so it makes putting an older engine in a newer car financially unviable and practically impossible.

important bit highlighted.

[o_man_ra23]

RA65 is required to comply with ADR27c which came to effect 1 Jan 1983. Any engine from 1 Jan 1983 onward which has not been altered in a manner which will effect the emissions will be suitable for use in the RA65 and won't be practically impossible or financially unviable to install.

Any engine prior to 1 Jan 1983 (or has not been authorised as to complying with ADR27c or later) will need to have its emissions modified so as to comply with ADR27c, and this would need to be suitably proven. IE, not worth doing.

Just thought I would put a bit more detail and definition to my statement in case anyone misunderstood what I was trying to get at. Thanks for the backup on this though Chuck.

[mick.wheelz]

I will NOT be putting an SR20 (or any non toyota engine in this car) I understand the reasoning for going that route though, and if it was anything else I probably would consider it, but i want my car to be all toyota.


I honestly think i am going to go with the 5SGTE idea, having built one before (in my ST184) I know what is involved, although this time i will do it a bit differently. (My ST184 is 5S bottom end, 3SG head, CT26 turbo)

I am thinking;

3SGTE Block (Rev 2, I have a spare at home)
3SGTE Head (Rev 2 as well, also got one)
5SFE Crankshaft (will get a whole 5S from a wrecker, will be under $200)
Forged 5SFE Pistons (will bore block 1mm to suit)
Forged rods to suit.
Custom Intake/Turbo Manifolds

2SC Sump/Oil Pickup
2SC engine mounts (customized to suit)

SA63 crossmember

3SGE Beams flywheel + HD Clutch

Y series bellhousing (can you use anything else?)
W5x 5spd gearbox, tail shaft to suit.

Does this sound like it would all work? (i've not done much with toyota RWD gear before)

Although, If I could find a spacia that could be interesting...

[thechuckster]

fwiw: i've been looking in wrecker yards for suitably-shaped intake manifolds that could suit 3SGE/GTE to RWD, and a few contenders are:
- SR20 from a RWD nissan (could be rare and expensive but there's a lot of nissan fanboyz out there)
- early zetec DOHC FWD (inverted)
- RWD volvo EFI 4-banger (throttle flange could rule this out)

i'm using an inverted 2.2l mazda intake manifold (onto a gen1 3SGE) as I've seen a working example, but the runners are way too narrow for any performance use - would not recommend for FI use.

All of these require a 12-14mm alloy adaptor plate to attach the manifold to the head (and to correct any port misalignment).

Am yet to work out which power steer pump to use (the 2S or a 3SGTE).

[mick.wheelz]

fwiw: i've been looking in wrecker yards for suitably-shaped intake manifolds that could suit 3SGE/GTE to RWD, and a few contenders are:
- SR20 from a RWD nissan (could be rare and expensive but there's a lot of nissan fanboyz out there)
- early zetec DOHC FWD (inverted)
- RWD volvo EFI 4-banger (throttle flange could rule this out)

i'm using an inverted 2.2l mazda intake manifold (onto a gen1 3SGE) as I've seen a working example, but the runners are way too narrow for any performance use - would not recommend for FI use.

All of these require a 12-14mm alloy adaptor plate to attach the manifold to the head (and to correct any port misalignment).

Am yet to work out which power steer pump to use (the 2S or a 3SGTE).

I cant see why you could not use a 3SGTE pump,

I have a 3SGE sitting in a north south position on my shed floor atm.. and the pump looks like its in the right sort of spot.

As for the manifold ideas, I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 3SGE Beams manifold to suite a rev 2 3SGTE head

But, I might take a look at the wreckers when I am there next for other suitable candidates.

[Kedderz]

rebuild the 22re with cheap forged parts from the states then couple it with a w58 and an adaptronic, add a decently sized turd-bro and your set.

[beerhead]

I'd run with the 5S block if its a late gen one, If it's like mine they also have slightly smaller water passages and more meat between the bores because of it.

There was an awesome pic a few weeks back someone put up comparing the 2 blocks, The late 5S block is much meatier and square edged on the flywheel end up top where the head bolts on too.

Have a look on the inlet side for engine mount provisions on your GT4 block, It'll have them shaved off so the center diff fits if its anything like my rav4 block.

Chuck - Pity you don't have a Gen2, my ITB's worked out really good and were quite cheap.

[mick.wheelz]

I'd run with the 5S block if its a late gen one, If it's like mine they also have slightly smaller water passages and more meat between the bores because of it.

There was an awesome pic a few weeks back someone put up comparing the 2 blocks, The late 5S block is much meatier and square edged on the flywheel end up top where the head bolts on too.

Have a look on the inlet side for engine mount provisions on your GT4 block, It'll have them shaved off so the center diff fits if its anything like my rav4 block.

Chuck - Pity you don't have a Gen2, my ITB's worked out really good and were quite cheap.

How late does it need to be? Just Rev 2? 97-00?

As far as i can remember the 3s does have them shaved, will check tomorrow.



I guess if I run the 5S block I dont need to bore it, only need new pistons/rods.

Might even run the 5S head (as i have one in very good cond. here)... or just get another 3SGE head for it...

[beerhead]

Haven't had one myself, but the back of the block is square, rather than shaped around the bolt hole.

[mick.wheelz]

I might have to pay a visit to the wreckers this weekend, see what I can see.

[twentyEight]

After building a RWD 3S-GTE myself, my suggestion is to go for the BEAMS. It will cost

A BEAMS with 6 Speed, Clutch, and Starter Motor can be had for a touch under $3k and, apart from getting a Turbo mani made (if you choose to boost it), you're ready to wire in.

The Inlet Mani for a RWD 3S-GTE can cost you $1k (if you want something decent, but if you don't then it wont even come close to what a BEAMS will offer you), the sump and pickup will cost you another $300 or so, then you've got the starter motor adapter which will cost you about $150, plus a bellhousing for about $300+, then W5x gearbox for about $500, plus add the custom alternator bracket for about $100+ and custom rear water housing another $150+ and it starts to all add up. Then you've still go the Turbo mani on top of all of that just like the BEAMS.

[o_man_ra23]

Simon, that is assuming you need to subbie out the manufacturing. If you have access to the right milling and TIG equipment, then this cost can come down, however not too many people have free ranging access to that kind of gear.

How does the BEAMS intake manifold go with boost applied?? The internal ram tubes are designed to work in a vacuum... do they work equally as good in a pressurised system, or do the airflow characteristics change significantly??

[mick.wheelz]

Simon, that is assuming you need to subbie out the manufacturing. If you have access to the right milling and TIG equipment, then this cost can come down, however not too many people have free ranging access to that kind of gear.

How does the BEAMS intake manifold go with boost applied?? The internal ram tubes are designed to work in a vacuum... do they work equally as good in a pressurised system, or do the airflow characteristics change significantly??

I do have access to a lot they stuff needed to manufacture parts... so the costs will not be as high for me.

However, I am somewhat interested in the idea of adapting a stock manifold off another engine to suit a RWD 3SGTE application, Not sure of how well it will work, but someone has to try it... may as well be me.