Modifying vehicles

[RT104GT]

I have noticed a few comments by members that now that a vehicle is on CH plates or Historical register that it can be converted back to the form it came in.
e.g. JDM imports can be fitted with FENDER MIRRORS, or maybe J SPEC RIMS etc.

I would like to open up this for comments:

Is it OK to modify a car to be below Australian Design Rules?
Just because it predisposes of those rules.

Make the car "ERA CORRECT" or is this crazy in the current days of litigation and accountability?


The Australian Design Rules (ADRs) are national standards for vehicle safety, anti-theft and emissions. The ADRs are generally performance based and cover issues such as occupant protection, structures, lighting, noise, engine exhaust emissions, braking and a range of miscellaneous items.

The current standards, the Third Edition ADRs, are administered by the Australian Government under the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989. The Act requires all road vehicles, whether they are newly manufactured in Australia or are imported as new or second hand vehicles, to comply with the relevant ADRs at the time of manufacture and supply to the Australian market. When a road vehicle is first used on Australian roads the relevant state or territory government's legislation generally requires that it continue to comply with the relevant ADRs as at the time of manufacture.


Time of manufacture.
KEY WORDS which you can hide behind.
e.g Seat belt rules.
In some cars you don't have to have rear seat belts.
Some cars only need LAP BELTS.
So would you let your kids ride along in the rear seat without seat belts?
Could you talk your way out of it with the cop, on a highway stop?
Should you be able to talk your way out of it and be seen to be an irresponsible driver/owner?


Just one of hundreds of points.


JDM CARS/IMPORTS
Side intrusion bars.
Risk analysis of driving such a car.


FENDER MIRRORS
Done to death in another topic.
Not on cars as a matter of course.
Just because they are fitted to a few imports doesn't make it right or sensible.
All the discussions here seem to be on the defensive in a self-justifying argument as to WHY NOT.


Another example was the "TOXIC ATMOSPHERE" Rivers words not mine
created in the confined space of the HUB last weekend.
Expected from the old school 18RGs.
Maybe tolerated by the members, what about the general public?
In a society where you can no longer smoke in confined spaces or cars.


DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER.
You know what I am talking about.

[river]

Hi,

Speaking for NSW... you are permitted to have the vehicle fitted as per built, including any period modifications, if the vehicle is on historic plates. Safety modifications are also allowed.

If the above were not the case then there would be no historic cars, or you would be expecting indicators and inertia seat belts on a 1923 Rolls Royce. Another example is a T-model Ford would not be a T-model Ford (and therefore not original) if it had to comply with the current ADRs.

That is the whole point of historic registration - to allow older vehicles to remain original and not adhere to ADRs.

In regards to a 70s era JDM Toyota that has factory fender mirrors. If you have one of these vehicles in Australia and under historic registration, you may elect to leave the fender mirrors in place (as that is how the original vehicle was manufactured) or you could remove the mirrors and put on door mirrors (using the guideline that it was done for safety reasons) and the vehicle will still apply to historic guidelines. You, as the owner, can make that decision.

seeyuzz
river

[river]

Hi,

e.g Seat belt rules.
In some cars you don't have to have rear seat belts.

So would you let your kids ride along in the rear seat without seat belts?

No, I wouldn't.

Could you talk your way out of it with the cop, on a highway stop?

If the vehicle was on historic plates and it did not come with seat belts, there is no need to talk your way out of anything. Your vehicle is true to its manufacture and if that means no belts then so be it. Of course, I think it would be dumb to drive any car without belts, which a my personal choice - but from the RTA/law perspective, you are not in the wrong by having no belts in a car that was built with no belts, and the vehicle is on historic plates.

you be able to talk your way out of it and be seen to be an irresponsible driver/owner?

Again, that's a personal matter. Some may think you irresponsible, others may think differently. It depends how one veiws safety items, like belts, to remaining historically true to the vehicle.

MIRRORS
Done to death in another topic.
Not on cars as a matter of course.
Just because they are fitted to a few imports doesn't make it right or sensible.

All the discussions here seem to be on the defensive in a self-justifying argument as to WHY.

Most discussions are based upon fender mirrors on normal registered cars. IIRC you can have fender mirrors on normal registered vehicles, but you also need door mirrors. As this would look silly most people use door mirrors. It's not really a safety issue (IIRC) with fender mirrors causing damage to pedestrians but more of one where the driver cannot see rearwards properly with fender mirrors. Having both door and fender mirrors, there are aspects of both which have advantages over the other.

seeyuzz
river

[RT104GT]

Fender mirrors also illegal.
The fact that a JDM vehicle and US vehicles have fender mirrors in no way qualifies them for use on VIC ROADS.


LEGAL CARRIAGE OF PASSENGERS.
The offence of not wearing a seatbelt applies in all cases.
If a car is not fitted with seat belt, cant carry passengers in those seats.
Just the same as a child has to be restrained in back seat if under 3 years of age.
Under seven must wear a belt or driver is fined.
So if no back seat belt or basinet restraint, cant carry the kid.

Rule references
Road Safety Road Rules 2009
264 Wearing of seatbelts by drivers
265 Wearing of seatbelts by passengers 16 years old, or older
266 Wearing of seatbelts by passengers under 16 years old
267 Exemptions from wearing seatbelts


VICTORIA ONLY..

[river]

Hi,

Sucks to be in Victoria then if you have a historic registered vehicle.

All those 1910-1940 vehicles with no belts, indicators, lack of rear mirrors, no reverse lights, etc etc must either remain off the road or be so modified that they aren't historic anymore?

Surprisingly, it seems to be one area where NSW RTA has applied some commonsense to the regulations regarding historic vehicles.

seeyuzz
river

[oldcorollas]

regarding fender mirrors on jaydeeEm cars....

just because the car was manufactured in a different country with them, does not make it legal or a requirement for them to be fitted in Aus.
IF, when the car was imported or registered in australia, the fender mirrors were legal to retain, then they should be fine for historic rego.

as river said

Speaking for NSW... you are permitted to have the vehicle fitted as per built, including any period modifications, if the vehicle is on historic plates. Safety modifications are also allowed.

cars were built to the ADR's current at the time, and any period mods had to be legal according to the rules as well.

Is it OK to modify a car to be below Australian Design Rules?
Just because it predisposes of those rules.

Make the car "ERA CORRECT" or is this crazy in the current days of litigation and accountability?

what are you really asking and why?
ERA CORRECT and satisfying the ADR's under which the car was built or sold in Aus are exactly the same thing?????

are you asking if cars can be modified to the design regulations of other countries, and be allowed to not met their ADR requirements, in the quest to make a car "era correct" for a different country?

[Farkurnell]

If the vehicle was on historic plates and it did not come with seat belts, there is no need to talk your way out of anything. Your vehicle is true to its manufacture and if that means no belts then so be it. Of course, I think it would be dumb to drive any car without belts, which a my personal choice - but from the RTA/law perspective, you are not in the wrong by having no belts in a car that was built with no belts, and the vehicle is on historic plates.

So how does it differ for vehicles with full rego? I have 2 cars with no rear seatbelts and one with fender mirrors. Are they both illegal? In fact the front seatbelts in both cars look to have been installed at a much later date than when they were first sold in Australia.

[RT104GT]

Hi,

Sucks to be in Victoria then if you have a historic registered vehicle.
seeyuzz
river

yeah soon to be governed by LOGBOOKS to stop people using them as daily drivers.

Maybe so but the issue I raise is not about 1950 Austin A40's its about post 1970 JDM stuff.

Which are being fitted with equipment removed for safety reasons by Australian Rules.

Also correct me if I am not wrong but several NON JDM cars appear on this site made to look like JDM imports with JDM accessories such as fender mirrors?
LT's dressed up as GT's?

Don't get me wrong lots of XY GT look-alikes roam the roads, in fact there are 400 GT HOs built and 560 on the register which is an odd thing.

Again the point being making a car 'ERA CORRECT" for the sake of making it ERA CORRECT?

Luckily I guess these low use vehicles don't represent a threat to general road users.

This site is evolving by the way and growing away from its original concepts.

Even I have just bought a GT4, so what do I do next week for RWC?

COMPLY

And in five years when its 25 and I can put it on RED PLATES
What do I do fit fender mirrors because I am able to?
Assuming the JAPS are using closer than it looks mirrors.
ERA CORRECTNESS GONE CRAZY?

Incidentally anyone wants some I have a set of cable adjusted fender mirrors taken off my
JDM FAIRLADY model in Armidale NSW by the Nissan dealer to comply with RTA rules.
He also disguised it as a 260Z S30 for rego purposes even though it is a 280Z S30 in fact.
So there are RTA officers and then there are RTA officers.
All is not as it seems it seems.
Nice wheels the ansens.

[river]

Hi,

I'm not 100% sure Farky on fully registered vehicles, but I am under the imrpession that if an older car meets the ADRs at the time of manufacture, then it is still legal to register.

So, your old Crown came out with fender mirrors and no rear seat belts, which was within the ADRs of the time, then your car can still be on full registration.

If you have to meet the current ADRs then most cars on the road which are more than a few years old would not be permitted registration until they are modified/changed/whatever to meet the current ADRs.

seeyuzz
river

[river]

Hi,

yeah soon to be governed by LOGBOOKS to stop people using them as daily drivers.

NSW requires log books also.

Which are being fitted with equipment removed for safety reasons by Australian Rules.

Perfectly allowable if the owner wants to get their vehicle back to its original condition of how it was manufactured. It is fine for 70s JDM owner to remove door mirrors and put on fender mirrors for historic accuracy. It is also fine for the same car to have door mirrors, instead of fender mirrors - which may not be historically accurate, but allowable due to them being regarded as a safety feature, and the vehicle will still meet historic guidelines.

Also correct me if I am not wrong but several NON JDM cars appear on this site made to look like JDM imports with JDM accessories such as fender mirrors?
LT's dressed up as GT's?

Everyone wants a GT but as they are as rare as hens teeth, they do the next best thing and put on some badges and garnish on their lower spec vehicles to look like one. It's mostly a visual thing and therefore not subject to any laws or regulations. Mind you a number of these GT-badged cars are heavily and tastefully modified, and engineered as full road registered vehicles, rather than building (or should I say converting) an LT into a GT in all but the chassis number.

Again the point being making a car 'ERA CORRECT" for the sake of making it ERA CORRECT?

Comes down to your personal taste. If you want your car fully era correct then, except for safety items, your car will most probably need to go onto historic registration. On a classic rare import I personally do all I can to make it factory original and put it on historic plates.

Luckily I guess these low use vehicles don't represent a threat to general road users.

The biggest threat is not the vehicle, but how it is driven and the attitude of the driver. You will find, especially in these forums, that those that own these older classics drive very carefully as parts are hard to obtain and it doesn't take a big bingle to write it off.

seeyuzz
river

[RT104GT]

So how does it differ for vehicles with full rego? I have 2 cars with no rear seatbelts and one with fender mirrors. Are they both illegal? In fact the front seatbelts in both cars look to have been installed at a much later date than when they were first sold in Australia.

I think you are OK as PRECEDENCE RULES may apply.

Its only maybe when you sell them that the next guy has trouble.

What happened when you last went for inspection and rego?

My NISSAN guy who I bought the Fairlady off obviously had trouble in Armidale with the RTA to the extent he disguised the vehicle as a different model of the same marque.

The chassis plate says RGS30 but is is an HGS30 so whther he changed plates for inspection or not dont know,

Mind boggles at the games people play.

AMI registering RIVERS GT and MY GT non compliant.

The story is they just lined up all the cars and issued a string of number plates.
in my case LUO830-LUO840
My little GT sitting in amongst a row of CORONY WAGONS and L models passed rego inspection without a comment. Nudge Nudge wink wink.

COMPLETE WITH TWO PIECE LAP SASH FRONT BELTS where the SASH can disconnect from the LAP and is non retractable

BACK SEAT has two TOYOTA BLACK LAP BELTS (But AUSSIE HAVE THREE).

Mind Boggles.

[oldcorollas]

So how does it differ for vehicles with full rego? I have 2 cars with no rear seatbelts and one with fender mirrors. Are they both illegal? In fact the front seatbelts in both cars look to have been installed at a much later date than when they were first sold in Australia.

afaik. if car was not manufactured with rear belts, it does not need them, but if not manufactured with no front belts, it would be a really good idea to have them put in
KE1X do not need rear belts for rego, even though they DO have bolt holes for them... plus their front belts have airline style buckles, which is ok until they fray and you have to get new, complying belts (will blt remanufacturers reweb belts with non-ADR buckles?)

I think you may be fined for having passengers in the back with no rear belts, and although you could argue that they are not required, if it went to court the argument would be that the passengers were endangered but not having belts etc etc...

again, if fender mirrors were legal when the car as built/registered/modified, then it is still legal.
there are plenty of cars still registered under the old engineering regs, with big block toranas, V8 corollas, V8 sigma etc. they are only legal cos thy were legal at that time, ven though the regs have moved on, and they would be illegal if presented or rego now..


RT, you keep talkign about era corectness, but you are confusing which countries era you are talking about... each country had a different "era correctness"

not sure why your mind is boggling????

[river]

Hi,

Even I have just bought a GT4, so what do I do next week for RWC?

COMPLY

If you want the car registered you will have to comply. It doesn't meet the age requirements for historics, nor any other conditional registration ruleing. SO you comply or it's not legally allowed on the roads.

And in five years when its 25 and I can put it on RED PLATES
What do I do fit fender mirrors because I am able to?
Assuming the JAPS are using closer than it looks mirrors.
ERA CORRECTNESS GONE CRAZY?

It's 30 years for NSW. As the owner it is up to you what you want to do to the vehicle when it hits the age for historic vehicles. You can leave it as be. You can JDMise it with whatever was available at the time of manufacture, including any period mods available at that time - so long as it's on historic plates. Your choice.

Era correctness is a personal choice and I don't see too many people going crazy by modding their cars to era correctness, while still on full registration. Yeah, there's a handful, but that's all. Toymods is an affiliated club of the CMC and they support and request era correctness, otherwise what's the point of having a club that represents 30+ yo cars if no one bothers to keep them looking in the era which they were built?

Toymods is all about Toyotas. Initially it was for modding your Toyota but, over time, as the cars and members get older, we wish to preserve some classics and keep them how they were built. In this respect the club expanded its culture to embrace historic vehicles. It gives us a wider appeal and breadth of knowledge where we not only modify bit resotre vehicles. I think it's made the club better.

seeyuzz
river

[Hiro]

ADRs are a perfect example of a grandfather clause, especially when it comes to things like emissions and safety features. Basically, the updated ADRs apply to all new cars produced from that point onwards, whilst the older out-of-date regulations will still apply to cars made before the changeover date.

There needs to be a distinction between the introduction of laws, and the introduction of ADRs. Take the seatbelt issue for instance. Regulations (ADRs weren't actually created until 1967) were changed in the mid '60s to make it compulsory to have seatbelts fitted - in South Australia for instance, it was '64 and only applied to front-outboard seats, but changed to all outboard seating positions in new cars in mid '67. However, it wasn't until 1970-odd that it became mandatory to actually use the seatbelts in most states.

So basically, if your car was made before a certain year, then it doesn't have to have seatbelts. However, no matter what year it was made, if seatbelts are fitted then you MUST use them, even if the car was made before the year that compulsory fitment was introduced (some manufacturers did voluntary fitment before the change date)

[oldcorollas]

As the owner it is up to you what you want to do to the vehicle when it hits the age for historic vehicles. You can leave it as be. You can JDMise it with whatever was available at the time of manufacture, including any period mods available at that time - so long as it's on historic plates. Your choice.

River, surely you can only customise it to the extent of whatver was available at time of manufacture as sold IN AUS??? or as complied when imported?
JDM (or USDM) has no relation to ADM, apart from some romantic notion that "era corect" means "japan correct"