Race Fuel / Injector help

[HIZOKU]

Alright quick rundown,

Car is 1jzgte with gt3037 r145 Manual

It has Sard 280 Intake F/Pump and 560cc injectors that are maxed out. Now i’m looking to upgrade the injectors and in doing so will be doing the fuel rail and FPR and so on
What injector size should i go?

i plan on running the car on 98oct for the streets but now and again for track will run race fuel or E85, I have been advised for E85 you need a bigger fuel system as you need to pump twice as much into the engine then you do normal fuel is this the same for race fuel?

And with Race fuel there are so many octane ratings, my old turner with my old car said higher the better and tune the car to suit but does this stuff seals up or anything like that is there such a thing as to much octane? I was thinking of getting 800cc Injectors will they be fine? Do I need bigger? Will I need another fuel pump?


Thanks
Rob

[Norbie]

It depends what sort of "race fuel" you're talking about, as that's a very non-specific term.

If the fuel you're using is basically high-octane petrol then you won't need bigger injectors for a given power level. It's when you start looking at alcohol-based fuels (ethanol or methanol) that the air-fuel ratio dramatically changes and you need much bigger injectors. I don't think you need twice as big for E85 though, it's more like 50% bigger IIRC?

[oldcorollas]

technically 40% but guys in the states were saying even 30% more was ok (can run leaner?)

[HIZOKU]

Well as in race fuel was C16 or 104oct and 110 oct rating items from martini or ELF as i can get them local

[fixeruperer]

id say around the 750-800cc mark. you can go to high of an octane rating so ask your tuners would they would recommend.
what boost and power are we talking ?

pump fuel to 114 race fuel has a stoich burn at 14.7, with methenol is like 6:1 so you beed big arse injectors.

i dont know anything about the sard fuel pumps, but id be running two 044's with a surge and lift @ around 600+ at the wheels

[stradlater]

Something else to consider, I have been told that E85 can eat away at the insides of stainless steel fuel lines, so worth running teflon the whole way.

[AL510]

Just as a matter of interest, have you priced the race fuel? Its fecking dear.I have run vp109 and it cost me $500 for 40 litres and i believe some of the other stuff like roo16 and 25 can be as much as $50 dollars a litre.E85 would be a good alternative if you can get it from the pump. With vp109 it needs to run a bit more fuel because it is an oxegenated fuel so if your injectors are close to the limit you will have problems. I believe the other race fuels are the same. But it is only like 5-10 % but you will need to tune for it.

Cheers, Al.

[HIZOKU]

Yeah I have priced it and im happy with the price i can get it at that is why i was looking into it,
C16 was cheaper then the ELF 110 i was looking at So im a bit undecided there as C16 is leaded and i dont know a whole lot about fuels hence the questions here

The reason i was looking at E85 is the petrol station 2min from my house has just had it installed but yeah all i have been told is you brun twice as much as normal so you need to have a very good fuel system and need to fill up twice as much.

And my Fuel pump is a Bosch just a Sard spec version like how HKS use garret turbos and so on

So I will need to buy?
800cc Injectors
FPR
and New Fuel rail
And Maybe 1 more fuel pump? and fuel collector can?

the mods to the engine are

1JZGTE Motor
HKS stainless exhaust manifold
HKS 3037S turbo 500ps rated
HKS 50mm External Waste gate
HKS 264 degree Cams
HKS 1.6mm head gasket
Intake Pipe
cooler kit
HKS oil cooler kit with remote oil filter
HKS 540cc injectors
3 ½” straight through exhaust to a custom HKS Muffler
screamer pipe from external wastegate
Custom HKS front pipe
HKS thermostat
Sard 280L/pr Fuel pump

Currently has 280rwkw with autronic on 16psi with a safe tune

[oldcorollas]

methanol is about double volume, E85 is 30-40% more volume... to remove confusion

[AL510]

If you are going to run different fuels I would also get a small fuel cell to go in the boot so you could just switch the fuel pick up line from tank to tank so you dont have to muck around draining tanks. If you got a set of indy blue 1600cc injectors and mounted them in a secondary fuel rail you could run methanol on the track then just switch fuel maps and and fuel line and drive on petrol on the road. Elf methanol is only about $250- $300 for 200 litres.


Cheers Al.

[HIZOKU]

I was thinking about meth injection as alot of guys in US use it was also thinking about chucking Nos on the car as i can get a kit for $400 off friend

But yeah just thought i would ask the question on how it all works and injectors more as i was going to go 640cc injectors i think they are but yeah then thought i would go 800cc then it cross my mind for E85 i would need bigger again so then i got all confused and thought i would ask the question

[oldcorollas]

good reading
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

Fuel needed:
As you will see, both in my article as well as other places on the internet, different fuel requirements are listed. What numbers will you see and why?

1. A car converted, but not specifically mapped for E85 will consume ~30% more fuel.

2. A car running E85 will require ~42% more fuel.

3. According to your own calculations (if you have bothered to look in to it), it will not quite add up. Most people scratch their head.

Let me show you a table again:

Mode ........... Gas .... E85 ...... extra % (mass) ... extra % (flow)
Stoich .......... 14.7 .... 9.765 ........ +50.5% ................ +42%
Lean power ... 13.2 .... 8.47 .......... +55.8% ................ +47%
Rich power .... 12.5 .... 6.975 ........ +79.2% ................ +69%

E85 has a higher density than gasoline. The change in AFR from 14.7 (lambda=1 for gasoline) to 9.765 (lambda=1 for E85) is 50.5%. But the resulting flow needed is only 42% greater.

Explanations to this: E85 will need a fuel flow that is 42% greater than the flow needed for gasoline. However, it will not use 42% more fuel since it will actually be more efficient. Generally, the engine will consume ~30% more fuel.

if your 560's are maxed out (90%duty?) then if you stick with petrol based fuels, 640's will give you a little more headroom for race fuels.
if you go to E85, then 800 should be ok for the +42%, and give a little headroom since it will probably use less than 42% extra.

if you were going to up boost again, thats a different story

as far as your original question of too much octane... is a very complex question. higher octane resists uncontrolled burning of the fuel at higher cylinder pressures... basically. but also (iirc) reduces flame speed.. so the cylinder size and rpm also have an impact. but practically, it comes down to cost and annoyance factor of having to buy the "special" fuel regularly.

[HIZOKU]

Thanks for the info there

I think i will go 800cc, I do plan on re tunning the car and upping the boost but i dont see the need to goto 1000cc injectors as the car will run on safe tune most of the time like 80% the only time it will go to a full race tune would be for a faster track like phillipisland or somthing or for power cruise/easternats style events HAHA

But thanks for the info and the link learnt alot and have a bit of a idea now

[Celica RA45]

on your motor are they side feed injectors or top feed and if you are after a pump i have a 044 brand new bosch motor sport pump that would do the job flows 300 litres per hour
looking at injectors i thought side feeds only went up to about 750cc and top feeds were higher
for what you are doing go for the sards 1000cc injectors about 1200 aussie new

[andrew_mx83]

leaded fuel will poison your o2 sensor and cat converter (if it has one)