Head Gasket O-Ringing

[Roundy]

Hey Guys,

I felt i had a reasonable handle on this but after searching through i am now more confused than when i started!

My engine is currently getting rebuilt and the engine builder is quite keen on o-ringing the head/block to aid the gasket sealing and avoid using a MLS head gasket.

Now from searching it seems it is something for copper head-gaskets, however i had read that it can also be used with more stock style head-gaskets. Which of these is correct, or more correct?

At the moment i am leaning towards the o-ringing mainly because it is what the engine machinist is happy with, but i just want to get some further understanding of it.

For my specific application it will be a 3S-GTE ~9:1 CR and aiming for 17psi boost or so if that changes anything.

Cheers
Nathan

[big wad]

mate if you are going to o ring the block use a annealed copper head gasket . i have used normal monotorque head gaskets with an o ringed block and when you up the boost the fire ring splits in half. its also a good idea to use head studs to get a bit more clamp and a good spray of copper coat on the head ,block and gasket, but make sure everything is right when you torque the head because copper head gaskets are not reusablewhen the block is o ringed. good quality copper head gaskets are made by ridgecrest in australia, the last one i got was about $150. cheers bigwad.

[jeffro ra28]

I would avoid a copper head gasket for any daily driven street vehicle. They seal combustion pressures very well but can have alot of trouble sealing water if not done properly. Bare in mind your machinist will encourage you to do anything that entitles him to charging you for more labour.

If you do go the copper head gasket route, do not use copper head gasket spray, use threebond 1207B or the threebond white.

You can use a stock style composite gasket with o-rings IF the O-rings are placed in a suitable location vs the fire ring on the composite gasket. Some composite gaskets are simply not suitable for o-ringed blocks because of the gasket fire ring layout.

Personally, i would steer well clear of O-ringing with copper or composite gaskets if a good qaulity MLS gasket is available.

[big wad]

you brtter take notice of jeffro because sounds like he knows more than the likes of steve bell , gene cook and wayne mankhen who have between them built many of australias top turbo engines over the last forty years . in saying that ,for your application a nicely machined block and head with a mls would be good.

[jeffro ra28]

Mate, there is no need for that sort of comment.

I have simply offered advice from my own experience and that also gained from my mentors who have had many years of experience in the game. I am also a qualified engine re conditioner who did his apprenticeship working on 2100hp endurance methanol engines. I have also seen engines come out of so called "good workshops" that have pushed the copper head gaskets out because the o ringing was done incorrectly and many times have i seen water not sealing with a copper gasket especially with the use of copper head gasket spray.

If you read my post a little more carefully you will notice my comments do not refer to "australia's top turbo engines" built by steve bell etc and contain my own personal opinions based from my own real life experiences.

Also, "over the last 40 years" advanced MLS gaskets have not been available for most engines so there was no choice but to use copper gaskets. There is no argument that the MLS gasket is the best all rounder and will live up to the needs for most turbocharged engines getting around today.


Get with the times mate, its 2009 not the 1980's.

EDIT: may i also add that the engines i was building with my mentors were "australia's best", with 49 wins from 51 starts in 2 years". Then went on to win the World titles against the yankees aswell.

P.s. i didnt want this to turn into a cockfight. Im just trying to give my statements some credibility.

[mr2gze]

you brtter take notice of jeffro because sounds like he knows more than the likes of steve bell , gene cook and wayne mankhen who have between them built many of australias top turbo engines over the last forty years . in saying that ,for your application a nicely machined block and head with a mls would be good.

what really pisses me off is wankers on toymods contradicting me on proven engine building techniques that i have learned through over thirty years of working in a machine shop.yous should stop reading your magazines and get some practical experience before telling other people what to do.

Firstly step off you high horse. There's more than one way to skin a cat. What has worked for you in the past may not work in another application for varying reasons, doesn't mean it's wrong. Open your mind, loose the tunnel vision, this forum is about sharing ideas and experiences about the hobby/lifestyle we all love.

[wombat]

Through some research I have found that you should be able to run a 3sgte with 17psi and not have to o-ring the block. But I have not tested this so I definatly can't guarantee it.

also a quote or two from a engine builders forum
They are talking about Big Block Chev's, but take into account the Compression and HP they are using.

"Get some copper wire and hammer it in place of the stainless o-rings. Hammer it in the groove, file it flat with a file, then put the MLS on, problem solved. I have done it more than once on some 1200Plus hp engines and it works fine." Abbott Racing Heads and Engines

"I agree with Mr. Kenneth Abbott on the suggestions of the copper wire in place of the SS O-ring wire. He suggested this to me earlier in the year and we conveted a BBC NOS engine to the MLS gasket utilizing the copper wire and it has worked great. The motor makes about 920 hp and then is sprayed with another 200-225.

Absolutely no problems what so ever with the copper wire and Fel-Pro MLS gaskets."
Chris Cobb
DynoTune Engineering

[Roundy]

Cheers for the info guys

The machinist was thinking stock style gasket, not copper, however at this stage i have no idea what the layout of the firing ring looks like.

Looks like a cometic MLS will be the go.

[ed]

lol @ dick size

odds on roundy youre building a 'good' turbo engine, but nothing terribly extra-ordinary, yeah? then just use an MLS gasket. full stop. off the shelf, no receiver groove machining. easily replaced, no headaches.

copper and o-rings are great if you just cannot get an aftermarket gasket and need to pressurise the shit ouf of your engine, or if you really really need 'belts and braces' head sealing. i concur with the idea of avoiding o-rings and composite gaskets, just too fiddly to get it right. i dont have any experience with o-ringing an MLS gasket.

[jeffro ra28]

lol @ dick size

ehhhhh. Sorry, i got an E penis erection after i was told to "stop reading magazines and get some practical experience"

LOL

[the_random_hero]

you brtter take notice of jeffro because sounds like he knows more than the likes of steve bell , gene cook and wayne mankhen who have between them built many of australias top turbo engines over the last forty years . in saying that ,for your application a nicely machined block and head with a mls would be good.

Hahahaha, I know your type oh so well. Wouldn't be a hotrodder would you?

I asked one why he didn't use a tubular manifold instead of some poxy cast log on his $10k+ blown 383 and his reply was "They didn't need fancy shit back in my day to make power". Need we say anymore...

[pornstr20v]

im using a copper head gasket got it from some guysfrom melb
i o ringed the head in case i want to change the head later on

need to zoom into it thats have a better look

[frostyadonis]

I would avoid a copper head gasket

If you do go the copper head gasket route, do not use copper head gasket spray, steer well clear of O-ringing with copper or composite gaskets .

now jeffro, you did insult him a little bit

[JustenGT8]

lol @ dick size

odds on roundy youre building a 'good' turbo engine, but nothing terribly extra-ordinary, yeah? then just use an MLS gasket. full stop. off the shelf, no receiver groove machining. easily replaced, no headaches.

copper and o-rings are great if you just cannot get an aftermarket gasket and need to pressurise the shit ouf of your engine, or if you really really need 'belts and braces' head sealing. i concur with the idea of avoiding o-rings and composite gaskets, just too fiddly to get it right. i dont have any experience with o-ringing an MLS gasket.

This man speaks sense.

A waste of time and effort for your build Roundy and more likely to cause issues than solve them.

MLS with ARP head stud kit and you'll run pretty much any boost you care to with no issues...that's a given. Det is the main HG killer, so good tune equals no probs

[jeffro ra28]

[
now jeffro, you did insult him a little bit

Yeah riiiiiiiigggght, i did say those nasty nasty things