fuel setup

[chris davey]

I am a just thinking about upgrading fuel system at the moment.

I currently just have an intank 040 which is 235L/hr @ 5 bar or 3.91L/minute. So that allows me to run 650cc injectors at 100% duty cycle before maxing the pump out. From what I understand anyway. The pump must be mounted a bit high though as I only seem to have 30L of usable fuel and I am pretty sure my tank is a 40L.

I have 550's at the moment which seem to be coping ok previously. I am thinking in the future of using a bit of N2O. And I would rather use a dry setup so excess fuel supply is required.

I have a spare set of stock 380cc injectors and I can get a second fuel rail so I was thinking of using 12 injectors not staged. I know the 044 is rated at 285L/hr at 5 bar which is 4.75L/min. That is 791cc injectors at 100% duty cycle to max the pump out.

So how does this setup sound? (see paint pic )

I would run 2 sets of 380cc injectors for a total of 760cc which should be plenty. This is the same setup as HYPO77. So I would need another set of 380's, filters, lift pump, fuel line, fitting of second fuel rail.

Or another option would be to go to 2 smaller fuel pumps from the surge tank and run separate fuel lines the whole way up the car.

What do you think?

[JustCallMeOrlando]

Providing they flow enough, why not use the existing lines and branch it at the engine bay end?

[chris davey]

only 3/8" lines. I would have done that otherwise. No real trouble whacking another line in though.

Actually, I might ask MS-75 what size his lines are. He obviously needs more fuel than me and I seem to remember his dual fuel pumps joining to one fuel line and I know he runs a dual fuel rail setup as well.

[sideshow]

i hate the idea of runnin more injectors
just means mmore places for leaks
just buy some 1000 cc ones and do it properly

and best to go for atleast 10 or 12 mm fuel line

i know of 700 hp rb engines runnin fuel down the rear power steering lines which are 10 or 12 mm i think as fuel feeds

so look at yr final outcome and build the car to it otherwise u will be doin it more than once

so for best setup run 2 feed lines to either side of fuel rail and one return

i know u want to do things on the cheap but this is where u can get unstuck sometimes

[oldcorollas]

which will flow more fuel during the openign and closign time?
1000cc?
or 3x380cc?

just out of curiosity.. since this amount of fuel is your base amount before you actually start adding PW..

i would be guessing it would be the 380's..

[pilot]

3x380 = 1140 It´ll flow like that.

Maybe most of the people is familiar with your setup but would you mind explaining me a bit of it? I undertand it´s a 6L turbocharged engine. Which kind of control are you using? Why not staged injectors?

[MS-75]

Hi Chris. What you want to do is fine.

I originally went 2 rails due to cost as when I was doing it, big injectors were triple the price they are now. I also had the spare rail and had already built the car with a full set of 1/2 inch lines. I had 6 GTR ones in the std rail, with which the car made 280rwkw at 100% duty and 55psi base pressure. (stock shimmed up regulator). I then came across a set of 550s from a GTR, which meant they would fit into the toyota rail I had spare. It meant I had 990cc/cly at std rail pressure.

I fitted the manifold with another set of aluminium bosses behind the std ones for the second rail of injectors. (As an experiment, I GLUED THEM IN with Devcon Metal epoxy, and it has proved to be bulletproof!!!)
I then figured that to avoid the flow drop along the rails ,due to pressure losses as you move down the rail, I'd run the two rails in counter flow. The 1/2 inch line splits into 2 3/8 hoses at the manifold which each feed one rail, but flowing opposite ways. I also de-shimmed the old reg back to std and had one reg per rail, both std pressure.

As for difficulty, it wasn't the easiest thing, but cost was low and it gave 1000hp of injection. Sealing the rails up was easy as I just used all new rubber, but yes, it is a bit fiddly.

The system has worked beautifully, and running two smaller injectors makes it easier to tune around idle (not as much a garden hose type flow which the 1000+cc ones have-and sometimes it can be a problem depending on the engine/ecu)

One advantage that was unintentional is that if I ever want to switch to methanol there are enough injector spots (you need almost 3X as much meth as hydrocarbo fuel)

So anyway, your pump and line ideas are fine. You could always use the current supply and feed lines as just supply and just chuck a 3rd line in for the return (good quality hose, braid or a steel line-1/2 inch)

Anyway-that's why mine is the way it is-a cost driven set-up-but it's actually got a few advantages that were just dumn luck.(they only became clear once it was all together)

It is a bit of rooting about, but it turned out to be something I'd do again.

And as for staging one rail, My autronic can't do that-but I wouldn't bother anyway as it can make tuning aroung the switching point a but tricky sometimes. I am also a bit spoiled too as Autronic is renound for handling big injectors around idle.

HOWEVER-one thing to look at is this-

www.injectorsonline.com

Look how cheap big injectors are..........Just drop them in-no messing about with two rails, two regs, 6 new bosses, 6 more plugs+wiring............??????

As for your pump, it should deliver about 290-300rwkw before running out of puff.
My 044 saw just on 400rwkw at it's limit and that's 320-330l/hr or so.

Sean

[sideshow]

you just cant beat an autronic ecu ms 75
i have an sm4 here im making a loom adapter for a gtr

the new model has so much extra stuff

i have read bits of the instruction manual and its very good

[MS-75]

Yep-Autronic certainy rules the waves for me. My mate just got an SM4 and it's mind bendingly good. It makes my SMC look like a calculator!

Here are some pics. NOTE THE DEVCON!

[oldcorollas]

3x380 = 1140 It´ll flow like that.

Maybe most of the people is familiar with your setup but would you mind explaining me a bit of it? I undertand it´s a 6L turbocharged engine. Which kind of control are you using? Why not staged injectors?

umm.. "Injector Opening and closing time" = minimum time needed to open and close injector. this is effectively with no commanded pulsewidth to the injector, and is the minimum amount of fuel that an be deliverd by the injector, and can significantly affect idle characteristics.

[pilot]

I´m sorry, I understood that you wanted to know how much can aither of the 2 options flow more.

[MS-75]

Are you actually in Argentina Pilot? If so, which city? (My wife went there last year-awesome place)

Sean

**edit**

I've just had a look at your profile and saw .com.ar in there. Cool.

[SL666]

chris, im running an 044, my fuel gets hella hot though.. probably not an issue for you

[chris davey]

Thanks for the info. guys.

One of the reasons I was thinking of doing this is because of the smaller amounts of fuel coming from each injector. Ie. Running dual nozzles on a drag car makes more power than one single nozzle because it was easier to combust.

After setting up my wiring for the injectors and having a good look at it, there doesn’t seem like there is very much space to do it as my runners look much shorter than Sean’s. I know it is possible but probably not the best way of doing it.

So basically at the moment I have enough flow out of the pump and injectors for 300rwkw and not much more. I probably am jumping the gun as I haven’t made anywhere near that power yet

I love how when you click on side feed’s it gives you top feed rails to convert They are pretty good prices but I think maybe my best option would be to just upgrade to 650 or 720cc side feeds and use stock rail. Use the 044 setup as pictured but just use a single ½” line in and out.

[pilot]

Are you actually in Argentina Pilot? If so, which city? (My wife went there last year-awesome place)

Sean

**edit**

I've just had a look at your profile and saw .com.ar in there. Cool.

Yes, I live in Buenos Aires. The country has so many different kinds of enviroments and weathers that makes it a great big place!