Hydrogen Petrol hybrid cars?

[Camryman]

Does anyone know anything about Hydrogen Petrol hybrid conversions? I saw two young guys in Perth on Today Tonight video clip had done it to a ford falcon. Basically using the car battery to convert water into hydrogen brown gas that gets suck into the engine.

This system was tune to improve fuel economy. But I'm wondering if the system can be used purely to boost power much like a nitrous system?

[oldcorollas]

it is complete and utter bullshit.

apart from the so called "browns gas" not having any scientific basis whatsoever, the power taken from the battery, comes from the alternator, and that energy comes from petrol.
even being very generous to efficiencies of each step, adn assuming you are burning the oxygen and hydrogen in the engine. you would still have a decrese in efficiency overall

ie, energy from petrol - efficiency of engine (lose 60%? since it is IC engine) - efficiency of alt and battery (,aybe only 5-10% loss? 15%?) - efficiency of converting water to hydrogen and oxygen (at least 40%-50%) - loss of hydrogen from system as it leaks like a bitch (be generous, lose only 5% of the hydrogen) - loss from burning this hydrogen and oxygen in the engine (-60%.. IC engine),

so, from the energy of the petrol, say you get back 40% when you brun it in engine.
when you use the petrol to make hydrogen (browns gas is complete bullshit) .....

then you only get about 7% of the energy instead of 40%.

ie, for the petrol used to make the hydrogen, you LOSE 83% of the energy you would have gotten if you didn't have the H2 being made.....

it was on today tonight, it must be true

did those guys change the air filter and oil for the first time in 200,000km, at the same time as installing this "system"?

[Norbie]

"Browns Gas" is a scam dating back to the 70's.

Wikipedia has this to say about it:

Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to operate a car using water as a fuel. Because the energy required to split water exceeds the energy recouped by burning it, these devices reduce, rather than improve fuel efficiency.

This should come as no surprise to anyone who understands the laws of thermodynamics.

Also I'm tempted to -rep you for implying that a Today Tonight story has any credibility whatsoever.

[Camryman]

"Browns Gas" is a scam dating back to the 70's.

Wikipedia has this to say about it:



This should come as no surprise to anyone who understands the laws of thermodynamics.

Also I'm tempted to -rep you for implying that a Today Tonight story has any credibility whatsoever.

I did see that on wiki. But I also saw that yahoo groups has quite a large group of owners who have done the conversion. Haven't joined to see what the posts are about. Thought someone here might have already played around with the system.

Also having trouble finding someone who has physically done the conversion who thinks it's crap ( maybe they are too embrassed to let people know )

[oldcorollas]

Also having trouble finding someone who has physically done the conversion who thinks it's crap ( maybe they are too embrassed to let people know )

you might find that is because anyone with any kind of scientific sense, won't have done the conversion..
and those that have done the conversion probably lack the scientific forethought to properly be able to test the difference in efficiency....

so yes.. too embarrassed that this fantastic system that gives you free energy, that they told all their friends about.. doesn't actually work.

however, if you leak air into the intake, then perhaps you will see increase in efficiency due to leaner mixture.


you can do some really simple calculations.
1, energy required to form oxygen and water (browns gas is an urban myth)
2, amount of air and fuel consumed usually.
3, % addition of oxygen and hydrogen to air.
4. energy required to make that amount.

etc etc

no matter what way you work it out, you ALWAYS reduce the efficiency, because you are losing energy.. twice from combustion, once from making electricity, and then again from using that electricity for hydrolysis.


look up "debunking browns gas"

[river]

Hi,

Well, to be a pedant... you aren't actually losing energy, as energy is never lost... it can only be converted.

Now, I want someone to invent Zero Point energy for their car. The ZP energy in a glass of water is enough to boil all the oceans on Earth. And, as much as it pains me to say it, that's probably more powerful than an 18R-G........ probably... .. definitely arguable.

And I was wondering why you can't run water pipes around your exhaust manifold to heat a closed-system steam engine. The steam engine could deliver power back into the engine via a geared quill shaft. Back in the 1950s the turbo-compound piston engines ran a quill shaft off the turbo and this was fed back into the engine for more power. So, why not make use of the heat being generated from your engine? Turn that heat energy into some mechanical energy that is more useful than just venting heat into the atmosphere.

seeyuzz
river

[oldcorollas]

or better yet, use that heat, to heat up the water in your Car SpaTM

just having pipes aroudn the exhaust is not going to extract enough heat. having the exhaust go through a heat exchanger may be heavy and liable to clog up = expensive to replace..
also the temperature of the exhaust.. 18RG excepted.. is not really high enough to make significant use of perhaps?

[minimechanic]

im assuming your a big fan of Stargate river with the zpm
kiddin kiddin
today tonight cracks me up the way she try's to make the boringest thing's seem interesting =D

[MS112]

And I was wondering why you can't run water pipes around your exhaust manifold to heat a closed-system steam engine. The steam engine could deliver power back into the engine via a geared quill shaft. Back in the 1950s the turbo-compound piston engines ran a quill shaft off the turbo and this was fed back into the engine for more power. So, why not make use of the heat being generated from your engine? Turn that heat energy into some mechanical energy that is more useful than just venting heat into the atmosphere.

seeyuzz
river

Technically, adding a Turbo already accomplishes this, since you are utilising some of the waste energy in the exhaust gas to drive a turbine.

On the other hand, you need high grades of heat -- around 200-400 Degrees Celcius or such -- to drive a small steam turbine. A lightweight double acting piston steam engine would probably work much better. Also, rather than try to match the turbine with the engine, I think it would be better to have it driving an alternator to run the car electrics.

Something else I can think of in terms of waste energy recovery is that apparently the auto industry is looking into using thermocouples (essentially working in reverse to "Peltier Coolers") for converting heat into useable power. According to a CSIRO journal anyway.

/* edit: */

In response to the OP, if you can figure out a way to convert solar to hydrogen in large quantities, then you would be laughing.

Sorry about the essay!

[wa5]

would there be enough heat in the engine, to run an effective refrigeration system (like a kero fridge) as a zero power us air conditioning system?

[MS112]

would there be enough heat in the engine, to run an effective refrigeration system (like a kero fridge) as a zero power us air conditioning system?

As far as I know, absorption chillers do not require very high grades of heat. Probably a maximum of 100 degrees.

I think the main problem with such a setup is the rate at which an absorption chiller would work at removing heat.

You may find this interesting: Exhaust heat powers car's air conditioning

/* edit */

It seems there has been some work in the 70's to investigate the use of absorption cooling systems in cars. There is one study as recent as 2000 though I cannot get the report details.

Cheers.

[vin91]

I believe for the Heat Exchanger a Mixed Ammonia and Water system does not require as Much Heat although you are increasing complexity, as it is required to be used in a closed loop system

[rob]

what i cant believe is that no one has expanded on the term "brown gas".