3tc wont start please help

[Cob604]

hey guys

i took the day off work to try to get this celica going as it is realy starting to p... me off

new compression test

dry wet
cyl 1 112 140 psi
790 970 kpa

cyl 2 70 75 psi
500 510 kpa

cyl 3 82 108 psi
565 740 kpa

cyl 4 90 129 psi
610 890 kpa

new plugs when i pulled them out:

cyl 1- bit brown
cyl 2- bit brown
cyl 3- more brown
cyl 4- light black & fairly dirty & wet

checked gap in plugs ( feeler guage = only about 6 guages/ reason for not exact reading)

old plugs >.025" / <.033
around .033"
manual .043"

old plugs W16EX-U - Denso
new plugs BP53EY - NGK
manual W16EX-U11

thats all i got around to do today, on the weekend ill do the timing light test & set it to 10 BTDC, flush out carby, spray wd40 in jets & see if it comes out carby throat. put a new can of fuel under the car & put a hose to the mechanical pump, then to the carby, then put recharged battery in it, & jump start it

if it doesnt run or show any progress this rules out:
all electrical side of it
all the engine timing side
all the ignition timing side of it
the fuel & the pump

so what is left

how does that all sound

thx

[w810sc]

you compression is cactus, you pretty much need a rebuild if you did the compression test right and got those figures.
refer to Rivers thread on 2T compression:
http://www.toymods.net/forums/showth...&highlight=2tg

Compression Pressure at 250rpm (lb/sq inch) [Specified/Limit/Difference per Cylinder]
T => 163.5 / 127.9 / less than 14.2
2T => 170.6 / 127.9 / less than 14.2
2T-B => 182.0 / 142.2 / less than 14.2
2T-C => 149.3 / 127.9 / less than 14.2
2T-C => 170.6 / 142.2 / less than 14.2 (Californian 1974 model)
2T-G => 184.9 / 163.5 / less than 14.2

[Cob604]

yeah but in my manual 3tc it says if it is under 70 psi it wont run at all

so it still should run, or try to fire

cyl 1 is alright
cyl 2 problem with valves
cyl 3 piston rings
cyl 4 piston rings

does that sound right

any one got a motor for sale or can help me put the 1ggze in parts car into ta23???

tx heaps

[Celica_73]

Mate where in NSW are you I think in some ways it's easier to see the problem then try to read someone else description of it.
I'm on the Mid North Coast so don't think I'm much help but you never know someone may be willing to give you a hand next weekend to try and get it going.

The engine does sound dead Rings or badly seating valves going off the compression test looks you have a combination of both. Cylinder 2 going for the readings looks like it has a leaking valve and probably dead ring the other three rings are gone. Have you checked Valve tappet clearances on Cylinder 2 are they correct?

All the best you know even a couple of photos could be help. Like the location of the rotator button at Compression stoke on Cylinder 1. The lead rotation although if it's been running this should be correct, Carby setup, Fuel pump setup.

Everyone is trying to give you pointers but it can be hard. All else fails become and NRMA member and get it towed to the nearest mechanic to look at it.

[wa5]

the hose from the manifold that is running into the rocker cover? Block it.

[oldcorollas]

thats all i got around to do today, on the weekend ill do the timing light test & set it to 10 BTDC, flush out carby, spray wd40 in jets & see if it comes out carby throat. put a new can of fuel under the car & put a hose to the mechanical pump, then to the carby, then put recharged battery in it, & jump start it

if it doesnt run or show any progress this rules out:
all electrical side of it
all the engine timing side
all the ignition timing side of it
the fuel & the pump

yah, those compression figures aren't good, but it could be sticky rings from sitting around.. or it could be cactus.
as you say tho, it should be trying to struggle to life..

you said there is no coolant in atm? none at all? can you smell fuel in the radiator?

one other thng to check, is that you have voltage at the coil on the + side, when the key is in IGN position, sometimes the power can get switched off when key goes back to IGN position from START.

if you get sparks, gap is set right, and you reset timing to 10.. and the leads are on the correct cylinders ...
AND you can get it to run for as long as you are squirting fuel in....

then it sounds like fuel problem.. (but doesn't trule out dead compression)
big vacuum leaks? no gasket? hoses hooked up wrong? (pull all hoses off the manifold and carby and plug them to start?

hmm, when you rebuilt carby, did you change the "closed position" of the butterfly? it shoul dbe open like half to one mm, so that some air always gets in.
does holding foot slightly on the pedal make any difference?
or two pumps of the pedal before starting and then hold pedal down slightly?

if you pump pedal/throttle, does some fuel squirt in from the accel pump?

[Mundoolun]

You have a bent or worn valve on number 2 cyclinder. A mate of mine had the same problem with his ford xf ute. If your are getter flames out of the carby backfiring ectra. Valves or seats are past their use by dates. Just get another running 3tc and chuck it in. Try finding someone that is doing a engine conversion they will sell it cheap. Good luck with it.

[Cob604]

Celica_73- im at ettalong, about 40mins drive north of hornsby, i had a toymoder coming up last sunday but he couldnt make it
Valve tappet clearances on Cylinder 2- i dont know but i do know THAT I COULD SHAKE THE ROCKER ARM OF CYL 2 EXHAUST MORE THEN ALL THE REST & I THINK EXCESSIVILY, that would explain the readings of cyl 2.
yeah i know how hard it can be trying to solve a problem when you cant play with it ect
i ant going to get it towed to a mechanic, as i am a mechanic. so they can charge $90 p/h to stand there & look over it all & go "i dont know"
thats why its up on toymods.
im considering buying a new 2tc & in the mean time fixing the 3tc then selling it.
thx

wa5- yeah the hose going from under the carby goes to the back of the rocker cover & i think it might be sucking the fuel into the engine, as there is a liquid at the back of the engine, feels like oil, smells like petrol & is creamy white colour???
thx

you said there is no coolant in atm? none at all? can you smell fuel in the radiator?
none as i just put the engine in & then put the radiator that came with the car not engine in (just sitting in with bottom hose not tight), ill smell for petrol soon
one other thng to check, is that you have voltage at the coil on the + side, when the key is in IGN position, sometimes the power can get switched off when key goes back to IGN position from START.i know i had voltage as i had the ballast resistor off & the coil heated u while the key was in on & i get spark

if you get sparks, gap is set right, and you reset timing to 10.. and the leads are on the correct cylinders ...
AND you can get it to run for as long as you are squirting fuel in....
yeap i get sparks, timing will do on the weekend as battery is flat again, leads are in corect order, cylinders ect, i can get it to fire as long as i spray fuel in it (not running)
then it sounds like fuel problem.. (but doesn't trule out dead compression)
big vacuum leaks? no gasket? hoses hooked up wrong? (pull all hoses off the manifold and carby and plug them to start?i dont know where the vaccum hoses go & i spent hours today searching google & toyota forums & nothing...
sounds good, ill plug them all this weekend

hmm, when you rebuilt carby, did you change the "closed position" of the butterfly? it shoul dbe open like half to one mm, so that some air always gets in.
does holding foot slightly on the pedal make any difference?
or two pumps of the pedal before starting and then hold pedal down slightly?
i think i might of changed the closed position of the butterfly. there is the slightest gap when the butterfly is closed & i can hear the carby sucking air out the top when cranking. i have looked in both my manuals & there is only a initial setting for the air, fuel mixture, all the others are adjusted when the engine is running
no moving the throttle or choke does nothing, no i tried two pumps then crank & i think it fired then died (strange that it only fires when it wants to even when im pumping the throttle???
if you pump pedal/throttle, does some fuel squirt in from the accel pump?

yeap it squirts a nice straight line. im going to drain the carby next weekend & spray wd40 through the jets, just to make sure they arnt blocked alreadythx

Mundoolun- i think one of the rocker arms are very loose as i can move it roughly about 1mm above the shim, so thats the compression problem for cyl 2. i was only getting puffs out the carby when i moved all the leads back one on purpose & basically it was firing on the intake cycle of the engine
the

[oldcorollas]

set the throttle stop to have the butterfly open maybe 1mm or so. maybe i twill run high, but is better than no air.

why would it suck air back into rocker cover? white stuff is oil + water.. nto fuel

that rocker no2 movement shoudl not affect compresion that much.. in fact, since the exhaust will close EARLIER then the compression should be HIGHER.

hmm, you may nto be a good mechanic, but at least you are persistent

[Born-Enthusiast]

I have a 13t sitting in my back yard was in my car before transplanted it for 2TG/3T hybrid i know it's a fair way but it is here if you want it. I know it runs as I used it for a long long time. bit of a clean and a tune and should run sweet. like i said if your interested it would be a bit of a drive for you tho not worth it if you can find one near you

[GasedT18]

& when number 1 is at tdc ( intake valve closes & then half a turn) until timing marks line up the dizzy is pointing at number 1 spark plug lead on the top of the dizzy
then 1342 clock wise around the dizzy

thx

Just to back up a bit. This doesn't sound right. Commas would have helped. One way of reading this is that your timing is 180deg out. Anyone else read it this way?

D

[jeffro ra28]

Valve tappet clearances on Cylinder 2- i dont know but i do know THAT I COULD SHAKE THE ROCKER ARM OF CYL 2 EXHAUST MORE THEN ALL THE REST & I THINK EXCESSIVILY, that would explain the readings of cyl 2.

i am a mechanic. so they can charge $90 p/h to stand there & look over it all & go "i dont know"

Bent valves cause excessive valve clearance/rocker adjustment. Clearance change wont hardly affect compression readings if its simply slightly larger clearance. However excessive lash is a direct problem associated with a bent valve or crud stuck under valve seat. Possibly the reason for your low compression on cylinde 2.

Wow some mechanic aye I see alot of mechanics consult toymods asking how to start a dirty old carbied hum dunger Not......

Oh, i also thought you where still in school and had 3 other jobs. Gee boy you lead a busy life!

[Cob604]

I THINK IT IS STALE FUEL AS THE CAR HAS BEEN SITTING LONGER THAN 6 MONTHS & IT FIRES ON ANYTHING ELSE.

oldcorollas- alright ill try the butterfly on the weekend, but even when i was cranking it yesterday i very slowely opened the butterfly & it didnt do anything. but ill give it a try as any thing will help.
ill adjust the tappet clearances to manual specifications before trying anything.
hey im still a apprentance but have learnt heaps as i had a problem with my old 2tg & i never got it started (bent valves), so i know as much as i need to atm.

Born-Enthusiast- what did the 13t come out of. ill keep that in mind as i might take you up on that.

GasedT18- " when piston 1 is at tdc ( intake valve closes & then i turn the motor half a turn) until timing marks line up on the crank, the dizzy is pointing at number 1 spark plug lead on the top of the dizzy
then plugs are 1342 clock wise around the dizzy"

that better

jeffro ra28- ok, that doesnt bother me as long as the motor can last longer than half a year & if im feeling luck a RETURN TRIP to QLD, until i swap the 1ggze into it

Ive got everyone at work (incl head mechanics) stumped about the car, & i think i was right last week when i said the fuel was stale ill find out this weekend, by connecting the mechanical pump up into a jerry can & cleaning out the carby with new fuel, blocking all vaccum hoses, setting ignition timing with light & then jump starting it.
if it doesnt start then the fuel, pump, carby, ignition timing, vaccum hoses & electrical side of it MUST BE RIGHT
if it doesnt start then a can of aero start will see if it is fuel related

what other checks should perform or what should i do/change so that ive got a better chance of it starting

thx heaps, i think were getting there

[Born-Enthusiast]

you still have the option of a blown gasket and bent valve's have you ran the new compression test yet with open throttle.
you can be sure by pulling off the head and replacing the gasket anyway it take about an hour max to do and then you can rule out bent valves at the same time. it's simple easy and I suggest it. stale fuel won't stop an engine from running as I have harvested fuel out of cars sitting in a wrecking yard for over a year and used it in my old engine it just runs as rough as a pineapple.

The 13T is suposidley an imported engine from Japan for the celica. checked up on it a while ago. don't know why people would waste their money on importing it it's just a 3T with a few head modifications anyway.

hope this helps
Nathan

[Cob604]

hey guys

Born-Enthusiast- yeah i have done new compression test the results are up to my second post on this page.
well the stale fuel isnt helping atm i know that, so im going to try new fuel this weekend
even if the valves are bent & the head gasket is blown (which i doubt as the compression results dont show that). i asked the head mechaic at work & he said buy a can of aero start as for a engine to not start the head gasket would have to be blown that bad it might as well not be there
so after this weekend if i cant et it going & i can resist taking a hammer to it. i might try taking off the head as i an get a genuine head gasket for $40 & i know they are so easy to do. ive got a brand new engine lined up if worse comes to worse.

so ill see how it goes as i can get your engine, door to door for $100 brought up to me, so that is a option.

either way i want to get this 3t started

do ou have any info on your engine, e.g kms, head modifications, condition ect

thx heaps