BEAMS 3S build up... not NA

[The Real Roadrunner]

well my RS200 engine rocked up yesterday which i was stoked with,
only to be told that the cam timing had been reset as it came from japan in the wrong position

i new there was a problem with the engine when i purchased it but the only thing i was told about was abnormal wear to the thrust side of the bores, now knowing full well that it would need a rebuild at some stage if i was pumping 25psi in it i wasn't concerned about that.

upon doing some removal of ancilaries, we (well mos actually) removed the cam cover only to find out that there was waaay to much clearance between the buckets and cams ie: too much of a gap meaning bent valves not fully closing , sucks but hey ill be having a chat with them on monday to work out a reasonable solution.

so i suppose ill be rebuilding it alot earlier than i wanted to.

the ideas are starting top tick over and the list gets longer each time i think about it but here are my thoughts.

Option 1.
tear down the engine and rebuild it with
standard ST205 rods and pistons (have got already)
not sure on exact comp but ill just deal with whatever it comes to

Option 2.
same as above but with CP pistons (6.5cc dish) and Eagle rods to suit ST205
have read that this will give 10:1 comp but haven't calc'd it myself
ill have to mill the top of the piston to achieve the CR i want if the above isn't correct but thats no biggie

Option 3. now this is where it starts to get expensive
use the 3S block and a modify a 5S crank to suit giving a B/S of 86.5x91mm for roughly 2150cc.
i could run a set of CP pistons (0.5mm O/S) that have been designed around this combo and run 9.0:1 comp (10.2cc dish) with a 3SGTE head but it would be higher with the BEAMS head.(will work out CR later)

Option 4. similar to above but,
Offset grind the crank to get 93mm stroke
use a set of 2jz forgies (if they are suitable, waiting on pin specs and valve position)
modify them to suit by milling the crowns 2.5mm (if there is enough meat in the top ringland) havn't had time to figure out the cc's but they start at 20.8cc so they would go down to about 15ish cc's

Option 5. same as above but
use a 5S block bored to 87.5mm
custom 2jz style pistons to suit the bore.

ill have to stuff around with alot of bits to get all the BEAMS components to bolt up to the 5S block (i think) but im unsure of the block strength with 5th gen 3S as there aren't too many turbocharged ones making the power i want (if any)



Head will be done as follows.
do some mild port reshaping as i think there are some areas in the ports that could use some abit of reworking.
fit 1mm oversize ferrea valves (if available) or stock steel.
put it back together with a MLS H/G of std thickness etc.
BEAMS Head is 34cc apparently. (confirmed by dave and glenn)

3SGTE head is 49cc's to work out starting point of pistons designed to suit. (cheers roundy)

std beams 3s gasket is 0.8mm when compressed (cheers dave)


45mm ITB's will be used

ECU running the show will be an Autronic SM4 (when only the best will do)

Dual VVTi will remain and function properly

im chasing a reliable and responsive 300rwkw with a GT3076r

there are a few other things im thinking about which i will probly add at a later date but this should be a good enough starting point.

any tech questions / arguments?
or possibly some answers, would be great to hear

cheers
linden

PS if you have no idea about what im thinking of building and are no smarter than a goldfish please dont post, i only want factual info or technical knowledge of the above engines.
PPS yes i know it will be sweet, thats why i want to build it

[30psi 4agte]

Id go for option 2 mate...

Fairly cheap ( if ya can call it that ) and still quite capable of the power easy with the right set of cams..

Insted of milling the pistons id play with the combustion chambers of the head to see if i could bring the comp ration down around the 9 .. 9.5 :1 area. I reccon it would be easier than milling pistons..

20psi... the right cams and those ITB's you should make 300rwkw without having a rpm happy rev monster.... providing the rest of the system is upto the challenge of course.... Ie fuel side of things ... but i know you will have that covered buddy

P.S... the VVTI sounds real slick..... now your just rubbing it in..

[The Real Roadrunner]

i want to keep the stock cams in there to begin with as i don't feel that they would be a restriction (154kw NA).

im thinking option 2 is a good option, not overly expensive and it will keep the rev happy nature of the 3s.

aiming for around 9.5;1 CR and ill be able to move the cams around / alter the boost to change the dynamic comp.

what about Option 6?
5S block bored to 87.5mm
custom pistons, eagle rods
91mm stroke. still relatively decent B/S to maintain its revy nature and more offboost torque than an 86x86 buildup.

option 10 is importing a jun 2.2L kit (that may send me bankrupt, so i doubt ill do it)

EDIT: not a real big fan of playing with combustion chambers but ill wait till i pull the head off to see if they need "fixing".

[Officer Doofy]

Oh great its arrived
When shall i bring the two around for the test fit?

pps oh yeah this will be sweet

[The Real Roadrunner]

essay that took me way to long to research and type

cheers
linden

PS if you have no idea about what im thinking of building and are no smarter than a goldfish please dont post, i only want factual info or technical knowledge of the above engines.

PPPS mass negrep may be applied if PS requirements are not met (yes karl that means you )

[BigWorm]

Sounds awesome. Any pics?

[wilbo666]

This should be awesome.

At first glance I like the B/S ratio of option 2,

But option 3 would give that extra capacity that would make it that much easier to achieve the target power with better driveability I think...

Be interesting to see what you go with in the end!

Cheers
Wilbo

[Roundy]

Sounds awesome Linden

Gen 2 3S-GTE Head is 49cc combustion chamber (researched and measured)

[Joshstix]

If you're going to go for custom pistons etc I'd suggest getting longer rods into it and moving the pin height up. The rod to stroke ratio of the 3S is pretty disgraceful in standard form. The extra capacity would be nice to make it more reponsive with the big turbo but I think I'd stick with stock stroke and long rods to reduce internal friction and improve efficiency around TDC. I reckon a decent wack of compression and the VVti will make it responsive enough, since the 3076 isn't that big.

I'll try and find the details for hte guys I bought my oversize ferea valves from, but it's been a few years so I can't promise anything.

I definately reckon it'll be needing more like 25psi than 20 to make the power you're after though.

[The Real Roadrunner]

anyone know the gen3 combustion chamber?

block strength of a BEAMS?

i want to do it on as low a boost figure as i can but anywhere up to 30psi is what the engine should cope with, mmmmm many atmosphere's

[dave368]

Linden,

Option 1.
tear down the engine and rebuild it with
standard ST205 rods and pistons (have got already)
not sure on exact comp but ill just deal with whatever it comes to

My calcs on a redtop made this at (looks for spreadsheet) with a 0.8mm head gasket (std toyota one). I measured my combustion chamber at 34cc for what its worth. 9cc dish on std CP pistons (off the shelf 3sgte) and it came up with Compression Ratio of 11.21 which may be a touch high at 20psi.

Option 2.
same as above but with CP pistons (6.5cc dish) and Eagle rods to suit ST205
have read that this will give 10:1 comp but haven't calc'd it myself
ill have to mill the top of the piston to achieve the CR i want if the above isn't correct but thats no biggie

We looked into this but we weren't confident on the resulting thickness of piston top using the CP's. It was going to be around 3mm (from memory) and we thought this would be too thin. Mind you we were going for 9.2 static comp, so a bigger dish was required.

The result that we ended up with was SR20 pistons (Wiseco) with a pin height of 32mm. We ended up cutting valve reliefs in it outselves to get the right valve angles. Most of them don't suit as the cams are so much closer together in the beams head. We also needed to deck the block down about 1.47mm to get the desired compression and thats why a 2j could have been a better option.

Further research has revealed that the 2J would have been a better piston (34mm pin height and 14.9cc dish) but I couldn't find one to measure for free to get the valve angles but it results in a 9.26 comp ratio.

Other options include Mitsubishi Evo8 (4G64) pistons and even 4G63 pistons. I have all the calcs here if you need them.

We make around 200rwkw using a 36mm restrictor on a GT2876R and a largish exhaust cam. I highly recommend going for a bigger exhaust cam to help it breath a bit better but the inlet cam is pretty close to the money from the factory. If you need someone to grind it up, let me know.

I have a bit more info here on this combination, so if you have any questions on what not to do, let me know.

I hope this meets your PS requirements

Cheers,
Dave

[Celica RA45]

hey dave did you open up the exhaust ports at all to get them flowing about 75% of the inlet
and yes you can use ferrea valves and you cant use st205 pistons as valve angles are different
also linden is it auto motor or manual
the block is very similar to the st205 in strength and with alloy sump they have ribbed it up more to the sides of the block
as far as boring 87mm is max ,and toyota uses select pistons which could range from 85.95 up to 86.05 in bore so it will most likely need abore up to 86.45 with new pistons file rings so you can get 2 goes out of the bottom end so to speak

rod ratio i use 2 different ratios but you would have to use 20mm pin for pistons so might not suit inturbo applications
you can use a longer rod from any thing up to 8mm longer ,but the rings get smaller eg 1,2 top2nd 1.2 and 2.4 oil control ring
and last
i make inlets and also quad throttles to suit these motors

[The Real Roadrunner]

this is the kind of info i need and will make my life abit easier.

Glenn, its an auto which has the steel valve and im chasing another set if possible as the 1mm oversive is too costly for the small performance increase it would deliver (in FI form anyway). can you PM me a price on 1 of your inlets to suit BT20v itb's (or a more compact setup if available), as im getting lazy when it comes to my personal cars.

Dave, great info there as far as pistons are concerned and certainly meets my PS requirements .
im not a big fan of the shape of the SR20 pistons and that why i was looking at the 2JZ pistons as a replacement option, they advertise a 20.8 cc dish on CP's website and i would only use them if i stroke the thing to keep the deck hieght at 0 (or -0.2 if i use a .8 HG), if you could PM or email me the research you have done thus far im happy to pay you for your efforts and share knowledge with you on what i do with this.

while i like longrod engines i would prefer to stroke the thing to make it more drivable while off boost and make it more responsive. + custom rods etc start to make this an expensive buil thats why id prefer slightly modded off the shelf components.

i should be able to get some 2jz pistons for $0 so ill make that phone call tomorrow to get those sorted.

the Eagle rod and CP piston combo i can get for sub 1K delivered thats why im basing my build on something along those lines.

cheers
linden

[dave368]

im not a big fan of the shape of the SR20 pistons and that why i was looking at the 2JZ pistons as a replacement option, they advertise a 20.8 cc dish on CP's website and i would only use them if i stroke the thing to keep the deck hieght at 0 (or -0.2 if i use a .8 HG), if you could PM or email me the research you have done thus far im happy to pay you for your efforts and share knowledge with you on what i do with this.

Unfortunately I was in a hurry when I made the decision to go with the SR pistons and should have looked into it a bit more, I do regret that as the cbolt ombustion chamber includes a little too much in the block and HG. Do you happen to know the valve angle on the 2j (anyone?)?

Speaking with a person that builds a lot of very expensive 3s motors (gen 3) here in Canberra for a unique corolla, he mentioned that they ened up going to 9.4 comp ratio but that required SPS to change the valve cutouts in the pistons to allow sufficent clearance. So I suspect anything off the shelf would require a variation on the valve cutout to suit.

Personally if I had my time over again, I would serious think about the Toda pistons that are a bolt in fit but that doesn't address the bore/stroke ratio. A bit more expensive and 87mm bore, but very simple!

I'm happy to share in the public domain (no secrets here) and I'd definitely like to hear what you end up with. I really like what forums offer but it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff sometimes and I like to hear from people that have actually done it, not just what their mate did I guess thats why I keep coming back here.

I'll send you the spreadsheet that I did my calcs from. Note that it is simply going off different piston manufacturers information, not measuring the pistons myself.

Cheers,
Dave

[The Real Roadrunner]

sweet as.

ill have a set of S/H 2jz CP's here in a couple of days to check the valve reliefs and dish shape etc that wy i know if they will or wont work.

happy to tell ppl what i use but unfortunately some ppl in the industry are reluctant and require money to help out, it makes my life easier either way thats why i offered.

cheers
linden