ATT: engine builders and st162 owners. durability of gen1 3sge?

[Dimitri]

as title, considering using one of these in rwd corolla, but have heard crank/rod/rod bolt strenght can be a bit iffy?

any possible solutions? like using cranks/rods from other S motors (3sf/5sf/later 3sg ect)

[Dale]

The biggest downfall of them is lack of oil, then they throw a rod through the block or do a big end

I personally think the main reason it happens pretty commonly is because they tend to burn a little oil, and people don't keep a close enough eye on how much is actually in there.. nor do they change it often enough. A well maintained gen 1 with the oil kept up to the full line on the dipstick can be a pretty tough motor

FWIW I had one that had done 250,000km unopened, and it's still going strong after 6 months with the new owner who is notorious for killing 3sge's, I know of others who have got 300,000 out of unopened ones as well...

[HAVABEER]

yeah 2 of my 3S-GE engines suffered from the notorious big end knock. and it is mainly due to oil starvation. (guy i bought the car off had the wrong dip stick in the car!!!)

as long as you keep the oil sufficiently topped up it tends to avoid this problem.

i can't remember about the interchanging of the S engine crank/rods/bearings etc, from what i remember i didn't think they could be for some reason.

what do you intend on using the engine/car for, if its gonna be race purpose's you might be better off pulling it apart and if available getting the crank machined and new bearings put in place if your worried about it failing you.

[Dimitri]

road/drift car.

i have had a ton of 4ages, just want a slightly more challenging conversion. motors are cheap.

also seems to be a slightly easier conversion to rwd than other 3s's. not really that much more complicated than a 20v the way i see it.

[takai]

Gen1 is worst for oiling.
Gen3 is probably the best to RWD. Still work needed.
Gen4 is already RWD.

[StuC]

As takai said - if you're going 3s why go the earliest/worst of them? shoot straight for a gen4 beams from an Altezza straight up. failing that, get gen3 or FWD beams and go from there. the sump design is pretty crappy on the gen1 also and is slightly better in the revision models. this is also the main reason for oil starvation. Any decent right hander at revs will send your bearings packing.

[Dimitri]

cos its 500 bucks. and a beams (gen 5) is 3500 bucks.

its easier to mount, compatible with more 2s rwd parts, ect.

stu, what experiance are you speaking from? care to elaborate?

[takai]

What Stu says is exactly right. The oiling in the Gen1 is the worst, and even with external drains is very dicey.
Gen3 is the ideal FWD 3S to RWD. Gen2 isnt overly bad, but they arnt much cheaper than Gen3s.

[Jt_70R]

yep, thats what everyone will tell you, oil starvation. No.1 conrod bearing is almost guarenteed to go.
Later generations have larger oil holes in the crank, and improved oil flow in general. Gen 1s also have problems with the oil returning to the sump from the head as the galleries are not large enough. They can also build crackcase pressure which doesnt help. Jon Chai here on the forums has a fairly worked gen 1, including a vented sump setup. if you search you might be able to find some pics/info.

Id definitely have to recommend sourcing a later gen engine. Gen 3 if possible.
I have a gen 2 in my 162, as a basically stock motor, its putting out 100kw at the wheels, gen 1 will require lots of $$$$$$$ to obtain a similar output. A stock Gen 3 should be good for 180 flywheel ponnies.

[Dimitri]

so to summarise. the oil drains are small, leading to a lack of oil in the sump, worsened by standing the engine upright.

but sounds like it can all be avoided by keeping the oil level high and some small improvements to the sump.

i will let you all know how it works out.

[takai]

It cant. Youll fill the head faster than you can drain it down. Hence the bigends will starve. If you add more oil youll just have the cams swimming in it and seals up top will lose it.

[Dimitri]

i think youre over exagerating. how do these cars get to 2-300 000 ks if the problem is that bad? obviously the oil system is not awesome, maybe not even good, but workable i think.

the extra oil just gives a larger safety buffer.

all credit to your knowledge and background. but i did specifically ask for opinions from engine builders or st162 owners only.

alot of people seem to be trying to talk me out of the conversion, but this isnt what the thread is about.

the way i see it, its only slightly harder (for me, with my resources) than a 20v conversion, and way cheaper, uses a lot stronger box ect ect.

ive owned a ton of 86s with alot of different 4age combinations and i just want a conversion for myself thats a little more challenging and unique. power is not the main concern.

[takai]

Well if you arnt willing to listen to people who actually know what they are talking about on the issue, then have fun on your own.

2-300,000k is with the engine leant over. Ive personally seen, and had to rebuild Gen1 3S's which havnt even made it around the block.

[rolleraction]

They are fine as long as you do not let them starve of oil.

Here's what I have done personally with a Gen 1:

A: Difficulty level = PITA (pain in the arse) Can only realistically be done when engine dissassembled for a rebuild.

Replace oil pump with a GTE oil pump - some 5S pumps also fit but may require you using the Gen 1 pulley. These have a much wider gerotor = pump heaps more oil at highr pressure.

The only problem here is that the later oil pumps are physically deeper. From memory about 5mm. You have to machine the recess in the engine block very slightly to allow the wider oil pump to fit in.

This quickly becomes a pain as the centre of the rear of the alloy pump housing has a small raised tit that requires further machining; about 12mm diameter round from. . memroy. This actually results in the recess going right through the block into the crankcase/sump area and therefore requires some gasket type sealler to be used to stop any potential oil leaks getting past the pump -v- block mating surface. (that's no biggie) My experience was that machining this area did not weaken the block too much as the oil pump casting is hanging off the structural part of the block and is not integral to it's strength. I had no issues with it.

B: Difficulty level = easy

Use later model (Altezza) head gasket that has oil restrictor in the block to head oil gallery so the head does not fill up with oil.(keeps more in the sump)

C: Difficulty level = PITA (pain in the arse)

Extend & baffle sump if you look like going near a motorKana / circuit race or windy road thrash session.

D: To avoid A above: Use a later model 3s. I would always advise step B and C if a thrash-wagon.

[Dimitri]

roller action, thanks for the great response.

much clearer idea of the problem now.

takai.

Well if you arnt willing to listen to people who actually know what they are talking about on the issue, then have fun on your own.

2-300,000k is with the engine leant over. Ive personally seen, and had to rebuild Gen1 3S's which havnt even made it around the block.

i am totally willing to listen, thats why i asked. problem is you didnt state what your oppinions were based on. if you cant be bothered to write a proper reply, something slightly more in depth than, this ones crap, this ones crap, this ones good... then please i would prefer if you didnt reply to my thread at all, there is enough of that sort of thing on here already.

like i said, i respect you for what i know of you, but ive never read about you being envolved in any 3s projects at all, so, how am i ment to know you "actually know what youre talking about" ?