5sfe crank + 3sge = 5sge?

[oldcorollas]

The 5S-FE conrods are strong enough for 8000rpm? How long have you had the engine running like this?

missed the Argo and Eagle huh?

[Nim]

Huh? I have NFI what you're on about oldcorollas.

[oldcorollas]

thats ok, i'm getting used to your style of posting

5S crank drops straight into 3S block. You 'should' use a later model 5S crank as they have an 8 bolt flywheel that mates perfectly to 3SG f/wheel. The earlier models are 6 bolt and I understand not as strong either. Argo have a pattern for 5S rods as does eagle. (I;ve used both) Custom pistons have to be made. (Arias have a pattern for these (I have used them; as does CP pistons I believe (they advertise them, so...) Have crank balanced and nitrided. 'Revability' is not an issue, but up the oil pressure a bit. Rear seal was never an issue for me, the 3SGE one fitted/worked fine. Very torquey version of a 3S. 8000 rpm no problems all day. I spun big ends at 9000rpm, an oiling issue later rectified by upping preassure.

ie, when using rods made by a reputable company with the same journal and centre to centre sizes as a 5SFE rod, BUT A SHITELOAD STRONGER, you can do those rpm with no problem...

no idea why you were confused in the first place

The 5S-FE conrods are strong enough for 8000rpm? How long have you had the engine running like this?

WHOOOOOSH

[Nim]

Oh right, yeah. Missed that. Must be something to do with me driving a Honda. I just forget that you can get after market conrods. I mean, us Honda blokes don't need 'em. 8000rpm all day on stock rods.

P.S. to wheover neg repped me don't be a pain in the arse.

[oldcorollas]

Oh right, yeah. Missed that. Must be something to do with me driving a Honda. I just forget that you can get after market conrods. I mean, us Honda blokes don't need 'em. 8000rpm all day on stock rods.

yes yes, until you turbo or overrev once those honda motors are built tough

seriously tho dude, by 8000rpm all day, he means RACING, and actually having the revs up to 8000rpm all day.. not the occasional rev when you leave a maccas carpark.

if you are building a serious NA motor, out of a 5S block, Rolleractions advice sounds bloody good.

[Nim]

Man, Hondas are pretty tough. My car knows what 8000rpm tasts like. And I haven't even been to maccas in like... ages. I go perhaps twice a year IF THAT and it's usualy while I'm so drunk that the absoutely horrid food doesn't make me wanna puke.

Anyway, back on topic. Yes, Rolleractions advice sounds good to me too.
Why exactly do you wanna stroke your 3S anyway?

[RWDboy]

You can also use the 5S block which is stronger than the 3S block. The standard bore is 87mm, all of the cylinders are siamesed, and it has a girdle in the bottom end to hold the balancing shaft which also holds the bottom end together better. On the other hand fitting some of the 3S externals like the oil cooler is going to be a hassle.

As to the suggestion of boring the 3S block out enough to make it a square engine with the 5S crank, I think not. 1mm over bore to get it up to stock 5S bore is pushing things. My 3S cracked with a 0.5mm over bore and only running 10psi boost.

The 5S block does have an oil cooler fitted to it as well, but it's nowhere near as good as the 3S-GTE oil cooler. Also not *all* 5S blocks have the balance shaft(s) either - I think after about 1994 they did - you would have to check it out yourself.

Boring the 3S is a bad idea, there's just not that much material between cylinders 1 & 2 and cylinders 3 & 4. Sleeving is also generally not considered a great idea. I'm not sure if it would help or not, but if you did bore-out the 3S, it may be an idea to look at ways of running things at a lower over-all temperature - and also ways of reducing any flex or stress in the block. Of course the more hp you chase, the harder that becomes.

Can't really say much more than that I suppose.

[oldcorollas]

Man, Hondas are pretty tough. My car knows what 8000rpm tasts like

thats bullshit. they are engineered well for their stock application, but if you start putting any reasonable amount of boost through them, they shit themselves. the reason they rev well high is mainly due to weight reduction (as well as some decent metallurgy), but if you overdo the forces, they fall apart... hondah motors are not tough. how many high powered honduh motors do you see without an insert to stabilise the bores ?

[NeoNasty]

Any idea how much the gear to make it a 2.2 would cost? Custom pistons etc dont sound cheap!. Are we looking at the cost of just buying a 3sgte?

I just think keeping the stock engine numbers to save me from bring roadworthied would be nice.

Thanks for your help guys.

[RWDboy]

Well depends what you've got to start with. If you already have a 3S-GTE then all you need is a short motor, and some custom pistons. Try www.google.com if you want some rough prices on custom pistons. Then there is the machining work to be done, and any other general rebuild items you want

If you are too lazy to cost all this yourself - then you are probably too lazy to actually *do* the project itself.

[3sgte]

One motor I saw work was put together like this.
3SGTE block
5SFE Crank, Rods and Pistons, from a ~91 Celica.

Bored oversize, a bit of clearancing done to the piston skirts, to clear the oil squirters.
Gen 1 3SGTE head, stock turbo, stock 3SGTE injectors run by an SDS efi.

One note, for those going the locost/scrapyard route is that there are at least two different #SFE pistons that can be used. One set have a very large slot cut for oil return from the oil control rings. The other is a toyota part, made by mahle (if the markings were to be believed), with what appears to be a much stronger lower ring land for the second compression ring. The oil return holes are drilled in this piston, there is a ton more meat supporting the ring land.

Yes, a ring land on one of the pistons from the first set broke. It was not solely as a result of the piston, the vehicle was in need of an upgraded fuel pump at the time, and ran a bit lean at the dragstrip.

Unfortunately, I can't say with certainty which motor the second (stronger looking) set of pistons came out of.

The motor only saw about ~8 to 9 PSI, for limited dragstrip runs.
The motor is currently without a chassis, as the car it was in got rear ended.

It was actually a really nice #SGTE to drive, the torque came on massive and low.
I suppose the combination of the increased displacement, and this increase relative to the size of the stock turbo worked nicely together (for what was primarily a road car).

[rolleraction]

My bore was 87mm & yes Stu for racing.

I experienced No head to block sealing problems at all and I was running 12.7:1 static.

Glenn Booth put me onto BEAMS 3SGE composite layer head gaskets they are really trick for a factory item and cheap and fit all 3SGE series/generation of engines.

I forgot to add that the better crank comes from the engine with the counter balance shaft. You just have to cut or press the gear on the crank off as it is naturally no longer required and just adds weight; not to mention it froths your oil up like a banana smoothie.

[Nim]

thats bullshit. they are engineered well for their stock application, but if you start putting any reasonable amount of boost through them, they shit themselves. the reason they rev well high is mainly due to weight reduction (as well as some decent metallurgy), but if you overdo the forces, they fall apart... hondah motors are not tough. how many high powered honduh motors do you see without an insert to stabilise the bores ?

They aren't designed to take boost, that's why they don't. 8500rpm on a stock motor? That's pretty impressive if you ask me. Okay, so perhaps rather than tough I shoulda said well designed. *shrug* whatever.

[rokusan]

well i was curious about the 5sfe internals and their relation to the 3sgte so i got a 5sfe from an st204 and pulled it down for some comparos, this is what i found.
deck height = equal
bore = 5s larger
rods = 5s very basic in design, though similar in length and didn't seem forged
crank = 5s again a bit simple not having the same finish or knife edging as 3sgte and this one had a strange machining on it for balancing? though i couldn't see much diff. in stroke and didn't seem forged either
pistons = 5s larger, basic in design again but were slightly more decompressed than the gte ones, maybe for low qual. fuel? and longer in the skirt
block = 5s same as other n/a blocks with all mounts and webbing still intact
oilpump = the propeller was thinner on the 5s

all info is my own opinons based on discussion with friends and local engine builder whom veiwed the parts
my conclusion was the 5s had nothing i would use in a 3sgte

[RWDboy]

Difference in stroke is 4mm, the difference in bore is 1mm (already established earlier in this thread i think?)

The centre-centre height of the conrod is the same (between 3S-GTE and 3S-GE and 5S-FE).

Piston is not 'decompressed' -> it's a dish shape because the head is flatter on the 5S-FE.

5S block not necessarily the same (differences between balance shaft and non-balance shaft blocks but that's about it).

3S-GTE's all have higher flowing pumps than the 3S-GE's and also the 5S-FE's.

I didn't think that most 3S-GTE cranks were forged either ? I thought all 3S cranks were cast ? Having said that, i have NOT had a close look at a 3S-GTE crank in a very long time, and certainly didn't note whether it was cast or forged either.