1jz ignition

[chris davey]

Hey guys,

did a search and couldn't get a definitive answer. Is 1jz-gte sequential ignition or waste spark stock?

I know that the 1jz uses the same igniter and coils as the 2jz and they can make big power without using a CDI type upgrade.

I have read on SF.com that on a 2jz when people use AEM and use waste spark setup that they were blowing the spark out at 17psi or so and needed an ignition upgrade to overcome this. Whereas, with stock setup they can boost to 23psi or so without upgrade.

I am about to get my wolf wired to do ignition timing (finally ) and don't want to have to do it twice. The HKS DLI is about $720 or so, so if I can avoid needing one that would be great.

So my wolf can only do sequential on a 4 cylinder so it is waste spark for me at the moment. I think it is possible to upgrade it to a v4+ and then have sequential ignition.

*just found out that it is not possible to upgrade to a v4+ so scrap that idea*

So what are your opinions?

Thanks

Chris

BTW Chuckster had this to say

sequential spark does allow you to control dwell a bit better... otherwise am not sure of other advantages.

tho rather than upgrade your CPU, i'd just suggest do something simpler like:
waste spark
bosch igniters
bigger dual-post (waste-spark) coils

If you did upgrade the ECU, then i'd suggest again something simpler like a 6 CDI units (MSD ?) or decent quality igniters (bosch) each driving a smallish transformer-type coil. The HKS unit will just be an expensive version of that same kind of hardware)?

What about running a smaller gap on the spark and to prevent fuel clogging the gap, run spark discharge or platium plugs? and tune the non-boost areas slighty to remove excess fuel?

[chris davey]

ok so according to http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h41.pdf page 6, the 1jz is a independent DIS system.

So will going to waste spark significantly decrease the strength of the spark? I was going to use an EF falcon coil pack as it is 3 coils in one unit and fits nicely.

Found this on page 9 (can't copy and paste in pdf?)

The voltage necessary for spark

2 paragraphs make me think that the waste spark system is not as bad as people make it out to be.

[chris davey]

Next question

Page 10 & 12: shows the difference in wiring between DIS and waste spark re the igniter.

So would I be correct in saying that once the Wolf gets the crank and cam angle sensor inputs the outputs (3) will be connected to the first 3 inputs to the coil (IGT1,2&3) then you find the outputs that did go to the 6 coil packs and get the first 3 signal wires and wire them to the corresponding terminals on the EF coil pack.

EF coil pack has 4 terminals, 3 for outputs and I can't remember if the other one is for 12v or ground?

Thanks

Check page 20 to be tested on your knowledge

[sideshow]

i think u wire
ign out 1 to 1 an d 6
ign out 2 to 2 and 5
ign out 3 to 3 and 4

that the usual config
but since i hate wolfs i dont know if theyre different

just buy an autronic cdi
or even an msd dis 4

not to siure how powerful the khs one is
if its the one ive seen before its a small gold box unit

it just goes onto the existing ignition wires

[chris davey]

so you are saying

from wolf ignition out 1 to IGT1&6 then outputs 1& 6 from the igniter join back together and go into one of the terminals on the coil pack.

So that is for one and the others just pair them up how you said.

Will look into other CDI units also.

Thanks Jim

[jzk25]

Chris, when my mate wired my wolf into his JZZ30 he found that although there are 6 coils and 6 ignitor channells they were in fact paired to run waste spark anyway. Strange but true. I have the wiring method written in my manual from when Mick originally did it if you need it. How are you setting up the crank trigger?

[chris davey]

I would love to get that paperwork off you if possible

Why do I have to "set up" the crank trigger? Can't I just wire it in? Wires from crank and cam sensors are wired together IIRC. I have an email from steve who told me how to do it.

Also, if the 1jz is run in waste spark stock then I should be able to use the stock coil on plug setup right? I was told by auto elec that there are 2 different types of coils DFS and EFS. One is for DIS and the other is for waste spark but I can't remember which one is which. So if the 1jz is already waste spark and the wolf will be running waste spark then that should be fine.

Steve said re wiring crank

You can actually use either rising or falling edge triggering
using a Wolf3D Version 4 ECU.

There are 2 wires on the CAS, one is red and one is yellow. Do both
> of these wires go (shielded) to pin 27 and 28? Do I need to use pin
> 6? I also have 2 cam sensors that signals can be sent from if need
> be.

You use the crank sensor with pins 27 and 28, and one of the cam
sensors with pins 27 and 6, where pin 27 is a common earth.

[thechuckster]

i think it's the loom that's setup for waste-spark - check the colour codes on the wiring from the igniter to the coils - a simple head count might tell as well (4 wires to the coils = waste-spark, 7 will be sequential).

If you're lucky, you might be able to run 3 outputs (split out to the 6 igniter inputs as suggested by sideshow) from the Wolf to the factory igniter.

fwiw: most ECU spark outputs for 1 igniter will not drive 2 igniters - likewise 1 igniter output will not drive 2 coils.

I'd suggest talking to wilbo as he went on a bit of voyage of discovery with his 1J wiring.

[sideshow]

if u r goin to run a cdi
thro the 1j ignitor out
first make sure the wolf will trigger the cdi u r goin to buy
its pointless runnin an ignitor to trigger a cdi

sometimes u have to do it but ring wolf see what they say

its just one less item that can fail

basically an ignitor is a weak cdi sort of

so once u get rid of ignitor treat the job differently

wolf will trigger ign 1 that will trigger input 1 on cdi which will trigger coil 1 and 6

then 2 will do 2 then coil 2 and 5

etc etc

but ask wolf first how the ign outputs go

on an autronic runnin 1 coil ign out 1 runs the ignitor

but when u goto multiple outputs

ign output 2 becomes 1st output triggered
3 is 2nd
and ign output 1 is 3rd output triggered

it gets complicated

this is y its a pain to set up some aftermarket ecus

then u have to make sure u have the inputs and outputs right on the cdi

its all logical in the end
and alot of trial and error
but no one wants to pay for it heheeh

i have a pic from wolf manual but the fukt up rules wont allow me to upload such a small file

but ill try to explain

on a wolf

ign out 1 fires cdi input 1 which fires cdi output 1 which fires coil 3 and 4
ign out 2 fires cdi in 2 which fires cdi 2 which fires coil 1 and 6
ign out 3 fires cdi in 3 which fires cdi out 3 which fires coil 2 and 5

this is for a 153624 firing order

so as u see above the coils 1 and 6 which get fired 1st get triggered by ign out 2
and so on

wish i did this sort fo shit more maybe its why people stay away from complicated ecus

[stark]

ok I can add some value here just a little oddity

The twin turbo early motors were all cop sequential. Whereas the newer vvti single turbo motors use a wasted spark setup

[1JZ.747]

save confusion chris


buy a new microtech ltx12s with the x6box ignition system. and run bosch coils

i am upgrading mine to this now.

[chris davey]

Chris, when my mate wired my wolf into his JZZ30 he found that although there are 6 coils and 6 ignitor channells they were in fact paired to run waste spark anyway. Strange but true.

The twin turbo early motors were all cop sequential. Whereas the newer vvti single turbo motors use a wasted spark setup

These 2 statements are totally opposite to each other. Which is correct?

Thanks for your help everyone. I am going to have to read over this again to let it sink in.

Also, I had another option given to me. Using ls1 coils which have the igniter and coil in one unit and are quite compact. On the surface, this looks like the most simple way of doing it and a lot of big hp 2jzs are using this setup in US. 1000hp+

Basically the GM LS1 coil is an ignitor & coil package in one. Very compact and powerful. It requires 12+, two grounds, and the ignition signal from the ECU. I know for a fact that it works great with both Wolf & Haltech EMS. It *may* even work with the stock Toyota ECU, provided that the ECU's ignition signal to the ignitor is 12 volts, rising edge.

The LS1 coil is a quasi-COP design. In the stock application, the coils sit on the valve cover, connected to the spark plug via a short plug wire. What we did with the SR20s we've done, was to modify a set of SR20DE non turbo Magnacore custom wires, using LS1 coil ends from a Corvette wire set. The coils were mounted on the intake manifold.

Because the Haltech E6X we used only allowed waste spark when using sequential injection, we wired the 4 coils as 2 "virtual" coils. Each coil was connected to its own cylinder, but a pair of coils shared the same ECU ignition signal. So 2 & 3 would fire at the same time, then 1 & 4. Because you're firing two seperate coils, there's no performance degradation.

With the 1JZ, you could get an unassembled set of 2JZ-GE spark plug wires, use LS1 coil end connectors, and that would be it. Just find a good spot to mount the coils in the engine bay, and you're ready to go.

Pics:

save confusion chris


buy a new microtech ltx12s with the x6box ignition system. and run bosch coils

i am upgrading mine to this now.

Would have done this if I chose microtech originally but not going back now. Too far into it and just a little bit to go. Next car will definitely have microtech and digidash though!

[thechuckster]

just a thought: on the msefi.com forums, some folks have mentioned that dumb igniters rely on the current or current+duration in the trigger signal to determine dwell - hence driving two dumb igniters from the one ECU signal could result in poor coil performance. Selection of igniters (or coil+igniter packs) thus becomes important.

A smarter igniter that manages the dwell internally makes this a non-issue. [comment about LS1 packs was wrong - deleted]

If the ECU is hard-coded to manage dwell you and your igniters also want to manage dwell, you would have an issue.

What ignition output settings does the wolf have?

fwiw: i'm going to run my MS setup by driving a simple VB291 (home made coil driver) and let the ECU manage dwell. When i go to waste-spark, i'll use two drivers to drive 4agze coil packs with the dwell still done by the ECU.

[chris davey]

I will have to check the settings on the wolf tonight. Can't remember them all.

The guy who has used them above used them on an AEM ecu. AEM make wolf 3d's so I don't know if it is safe to assume that they would be sending a similar signal to the ls1 coils.

Also one last thing. I'm not sure how the setup is with the Wolf, but you should be able to select a charge time in milliseconds. Start off by running the coils at 4 ms. You can increase from there, but don't go any higher than 4.5, or you can risk burning up the coils.

Is that the settings you are referring to Charles?

[chris davey]

just found this

http://www.picotech.com/auto/tutoria...n-primary.html

Dwell is measured as an angle: with contact ignition, the points gap determines the dwell angle. The definition of contact ignition dwell is: ‘the number of degrees of distributor rotation with the contacts in the closed position’. As an example, a 4 cylinder engine will have a dwell of approximately 45 degrees, which is 50% of one cylinders complete primary cycle.

The dwell period on an engine with electronic ignition is controlled by the current limiting circuit within the amplifier or Electronic Control Module (ECM). The dwell on a variable dwell or constant energy system will be seen to expand as the engine speed increases, compensating for the shorter time period.
The term ‘constant energy’ refers to the available voltage produced by the coil. This, regardless of engine speed, will remain constant as opposed to contact ignition where an increase in engine speed means the contacts are closed for a shorter time period. The coils saturation time can be seen in Fig 1.4, where the time available to saturate the coil is a constant 3.0 milliseconds regardless of the engine speed. The saturation time is considerably lower than that of a contact system due to the coils supply voltage being approximately double that of a ballasted contact system and the coils primary resistance approximately halved. This will result in a far higher current, saturating the coil with amperage that would not be possible on a contact system.