How much heat does an SC12 produce?

[Devils]

Essentially yes!

I'm not running a system as complex as to produce 'browns gas' but a low end electrolysis tank.

[Draven]

what sort of volume % of hydrogen do you run?

I can only think setting it up after s/c would be a better way to do it... not that I'd really like to run hydrogen in any engine I felt like having live... nitrous is much more stable.

[Devils]

what sort of volume % of hydrogen do you run?

I can only think setting it up after s/c would be a better way to do it... not that I'd really like to run hydrogen in any engine I felt like having live... nitrous is much more stable.

Not much at this point.

After the S/C would mean setting up a kind of 'blow-by' system but that would essentially pressurize the tank when on boost and the gas production would be reduced. Running at atmosphere or below will help create more.

And as for the last comment, because your making the gas as you go there is never enough to make more than a rather large bang.

Tros costs money! Hrydroxygen doesn't cost any more than water!

[Draven]

reliable power costs money

[Devils]

Who said anything about power?

lol

Nar seriously, at the moment it's a economy thing but i'm researching into it as being a power provider as well.

I believe it's do-able but it would definitely have to be tuned in rather than just added on and change a few inputs on the ECU. I'll be doing this on my AW11SC once i put in the Adaptronic!

At the moment, as i sold the 180SX, i've only got a system running in my bosses V6 Pajero. I want to put it on our dyno but he doesn't want to, as the torque seems to increase surprisingly a fair bit when the hydrogen is switched on. It is also saving him 50km a tank at the moment, just slapped in there. But soon to do some tweaking a see what we can do!

[oldcorollas]

ahh browns gas... you know the science behind it is fable?

also, think about the volume of air ingested by engine...

anyway... will be interesting to se the pictures when you post them together with info about what volumes etc you are using
50km a tank? hmmmm..


ps, are you being chased by the FBI? (pps, i'm just sceptical.. so edumacate me as to the science of it )

[Devils]

No because i'm not trying to run my car entirely on water

But yes i'll post up all results when i've got some to post. It will all be done on the dyno and videoed etc.

P.S. Boss has always used 98ron fuel. Last fill up he used 91ron, showed no change in the running of the car or lack of power or anything. Got the same mileage (just a touch more) than he got from 98 without hydrogen.
Not bad for a 25c per liter difference fuel cost!

[oldcorollas]

but.. some cars are tuned for 91... and will run better with 91 than 98... especially with Aus delivered cars (they need to be able to run with the crappest fuel usually)
if he got 25% more mileage using the same fuel, over a series of maybe 10 tanks each, alternating between with and without hydrogen (so there are no seasonal effects of temp etc), and only driving the same way (ie, to work) each day.. and the driver not knowing if it was switched on or not...
then any mileage claim may have some credibility

most of the "testimonials" for products go like..

"i installed to turbozet and air filter andspark plugs and first oil change after 100,000km, and got 25% better fuel economy!!!"

in fact, most cars will get abotu the same mileage from 91-98.. since you are only talking about cruising for th emost part, and the calorific content of the fuel. the fuel density of the 98's in oz mean you don't have to burn a significantly different volume of fuel to have the same energy...

otherwise.. most cars would not be able to run 98 and 91... they would have to be one or the other... ie.. having to have injectors squirt in 10% more 98 octane fuel over the whole map is far beyond what most ECU's are designed to do, since they cannot detect which fuel is which.


anyway
i am curious to know what volume of hydrogen (or is it actually "browns gas"?) that is being put in.. where it comes from.. how it is made.. and where the electricity comes from to power the electrolysis (ie, from alternator while running? or from wall socket? and if from wall socket, how do you store many litres of hydrogen?)

i think it is a neat idea, but i am highly sceptical of the science. but i am open minded enough to discuss the merits and learn, if there is actually some science to it

[Devils]

Mr OC i'm keen to chat with you about it as there are some other things i would like to know about which you seem like you may be able to help me with.
Such as: Working out air flow or volume per cyl per combustion, then the mixture of that content (Air *broken into O2 and Nitrogen and what ever else is in it, Fuel) and finally how much extra O2 and H2 i will be adding into each event given a flow rate of "browns gas" eg 60L /hr.

But i will talk to you more about THIS when i actually know more myself.

[pisso001]

This sounds interesting although i dont really know whats going on.. Could you enlighten me on what you are doing, why and how???

Thanks,

Chris.

[oldcorollas]

depends on size of engine and throttle usage..

sayy...4ag, 90% VE, full throttle =
0.9x1.6 / 2 L per rpm = 0.72L per rpm.

say.. for arguments sake.. 4000rpm = 2880L/minute. make it 3000 (4170rpm)

per hour that is 250,000L of gas passing thru the engine of which 21% is oxygen

so full throttle, 4166rpm, a 4AG consumes 52,500 Litres of oxygen per hour.

browns gas is supposed to be a "new molecular form of water which gives out more energy than it takes to make" (ie, you can make a perpetual energy machine).. but if you are doing normal electrolysis and getting 1/2 O2 + H2.. means 1/3rd of gas is O2..
at 60L, that is 20L of oxygen.

in the example above, you are adding 0.038% oxygen. which chould make a bit les of a difference.. maybe 0.02% difference to torque and power. at 100kw, that equates to 0.02kw difference.

assuming injectors are run at about 80% duty at full throttle.. and around 10-15% duty at cruise (lets say 10% to be kind).. then at cruise you are using 1/8th of the air you do at full throttle...

so, take 52500L / 8 = 6563L of oxygen per hour.
add 20L of oxygen..
now the extra is (6563+20)/6563 = (and converted to % extra) = 0.305% extra oxygen.
you might make an extra 0.2 or 0.3% power here..

so taking example of 1/8th of 100kw = 12.5kw, again, you make an extra 0.038kw.


say we wanted to increase the oxygen available by 50% at cruise...
about 3280L of oxygen per hour or 9850L of electrolysis gas.
thats 164L per minute or 2.74L per second.

now... 2.74L of gas is...(lets use hydrogen to make it easier, so 2/3rds is H2 = 1.8L)
1.8L of H2 = 0.074 moles..

to make 1 mole of H2 from electrolysis takes (minimum) 240kJ.
so we need 17kj per second to make the required gas to increase O2 content at cruise at 4000rpm.
1j = 1 watt per second or 1 watt = 1 J/s .
since we know we need 17kJ per second anyway, we know we need 17kW...


so... to make enough gas, for cruise conditions on a 4AG, at 4000rpm, to have 50% extra O2... we need to use 17kW of electricity, or with poor efficiency, say 30kW.

considering the engine only makes 12.5kW under those conditions, and (assuming hydrogen and petrol give same output of power when burnt stoichiometric with oxygen), we can assume that....

by consuming 30kW of power from the alternator to keep generating enough oxygen/hydrogen..... we can make an extra 6kw. power...

a net loss of 24kW.. on a 100kW motor.....

anyway, they are some VERY ROUGH guesstimates... if someone knows the duty cycle of injectors during cruise, we can work it out more accurately...

Cya, Stewart

[Devils]

Hey Stewart (wow i know your name )

If you think about it, it's not being "added" on top of what is already going in, but is replacing air with the O2/H2 gas mix!

As i understand it, true browns gas is the type of electrolysis that creates 2H2O (i think) (the gas equivalent of heavy water). As it's not about the oxygen your adding in, it's the hydrogen!

As i said, i've yet to do alot more research into the back ground of it but i've got two working systems and they do show differences when switched on or off!
But i like to know the 'science' behind what i'm doing which is why i'm going further into it.

As i mentioned earlier, it wasn't about making power (like it would be for the guys that run their engine ENTIRELY off water > gas) but being able to save on fuel costs by taking out some of the fuel normally put in!

None of the websites i've visited have been very in depth with the whole thing so i'm having to work it out for myself.

EDIT: Cheers, Craig.

[EldarO]

dont people watch mythbusters?

its this cool show where they bust myths.

[Devils]

Have they done anything about this subject?

[roadsailing]

myths? huh?

if you have measured improved fuel economy, then that is interesting! by measure i mean reasonably scientifically, for the same driving duty cycle, over a long period of time.

if it means you engine blows in 1000 ks its not worth it, but hey props to you for experimenting.