Whats involved in building Race engine

[ed]

shit - this is a long bow to draw dude...

what exactly do you want to know? theres 400 ways to build an engine. you need to specifically lay out your aims and options and we can debate them individually. otehrwise we could just talk shit for hours and never get anywhere

basically to pull big reliable numbers you need to optimise the ENTIRE engine setup TOGETHER as a single unit. no one bit of the engine can be designed in isolation from anotehr bit. and EVERY little bit adds up and takes strain off the otehr components. optimised port and valve configurations, tuned manifolds and cams, matched pistons and heads, supporting bottom end and lubrication system. its ALL one single hamonised unit, and has to be planned like that from the outset.

empty your brain of the 'additive' yanky fact approach to 'bolt on' modification, its complete toss. spend 6 months reading and thinking about what you want to achieve, and then sit down with a clean piece of paper.

[horse]

easy approach.
list every part in an engine and its base price then ring around for an upgraded price. then ring around for service costs of component conditioning what ever it might be.

total that and multiply it some

and this doesnt even take into consideration the need to purchase specialist tools etc

http://www.hotrod.com/tipstricks/34219/
http://www.circletrack.com/tipstrick..._first_engine/
http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-10.html

etc

[clubagreenie]

total that and double it

FIXED

[30psi 4agte]

personly id be looking to keep the rpm down around 7000. Aim for a comp ratio of around 8 - 8.5:1. This will allow you to run boost levels around 20 psi providing your bottom end is up to it.

This brings me to the next part. Im not sure what a 2tg bottom end is like but at a guess ... id say nothing like a 4AGZE bottom end so make sure you factor in forged rods and pistons.

To make 300 odd hp should be "fairly" straight forward and with a decent bottom end and some cams to allow the air to be consumed you should beable to achieve it and have it be reliable.......... Take note though NO amount of planing can stop things from breaking in a racing environment and the only way to achieve true reliability is through trial and error Hence the headache and cost of hp.

The little things are what seperates a good motor from a great motor! and research is the key here. Ask around as to what other people have done to their engine (2tg) ... it also pays to go to things like hill climbs etc etc and ask / spy the guys that are racing the things.

I have often seen/ noticed things on certain engines that arent "stock" (for example a different oil pump) but when asked what they were using or what that part was from i got no answer only a smile.......... but from there you get the idea that , that certain part needs attention in a racing environment and can further investigate from there!

[Joshstix]

My advice is to find someone who has experience building these engines for motorsport use, they got a fair bit of use in both rally and circuit racing. Sure they'll have been N/A engines but a tough N/A engine is only a lower compression ratio and a set of more mild cams away from being a tough turbo engine.

I know Graham Wilkins of Wilkins Performance Engines has a lot of experience in building the old T series engines.

As to your specific questions above, gapless rings = NO. The vast majority of people you hear complaining that their rings never bedded are using gapless rings. I know some people love them but far too many people have had problems with them for me to be happy with using them.

[ed]

im using gapless rings...

[clubagreenie]

I've got a gapless ring

FIXED

[infotechplus]

If you are doing the work yourself you need to know what you are doing.

But when I rebuilt my peripheral ported 13B race engine some years back, it was MEASURE, MEASURE and RE-MEASURE everything. I put that engine together three times before I was happy everything was correct (clearances, tolerances, gaps, whatever).

Same applies to any engine built for high revs. The tolerances have to be spot on to give you some reliability. But then most race engines are stripped down and rebuilt at the end of every season. So I suppose it depends on how serious you are.

My current race car has stock internals but still revs to 9500 RPM all day thanks to an aftermarket clutch kit, free flowing exhaust, and stripped out interior.

If you're not doing the work yourself, then it's a lottery - a calculated one depending on who you get to do the work. Ask around, research the local engine builders in your area. The good one(s) will come to the front but be prepared to pay as good work takes time.

Good luck with it,

Cheers,

Peter

[Joshstix]

im using gapless rings...

Good luck with that. They seem awesome in theory. I just know of too many freshly built engines that have had to be pulled down again for a hone and new rigns due to the gapless never bedding correctly.

[ed]

and i can point you towards many other engines working flawlessly. theres a method to the hone, theres a method to the run in. theres the tune, the luck etc etc...

theres been evolution of the ring design over the years from 2nd to 1st

i suspect theres a large degree of variability in engine builders ability to hone to specific requirements contributing to the failures. bit of a double edged sword, but im confident with my builder

[rob]

but im confident with my builder

*cough* chequebook racer *cough*

[ed]

oh, im sorry rob, i shouldve asked before i dove in....

.... next time can we swing by your joint to use the bore machine, and maybe a few of the new hones?

[clubagreenie]

*cough* chequebook racer *cough*

Jealousy's a curse. I should know, it's sitting in my garage. How long does something have to be there before being considered abandoned?

[Crazyracer]

Before you start down the path of building an old school 2 valve motor, you should probably look at your options to put a more modern 4 valve motor in, unless the rules you have to run to forbid it.

I did a fair amount of development on an old L20B Datsun motor before deciding to switch to a 3SGE. After several years of "cost effective" development on the Datto engine the horsepower (a little over 200hp) wasn't much better than the standard 3SGE turned out to be and the Datto was getting reasonably stressed at that. The 3SGE started around the same mark and then still had lots of room for improvement.

A mate went down the same path and ended up with around 250hp out of his Gen 2, 3SGE and people on these forums are getting even more out of later models.

The point I'm trying to make is that you'll spend a heap of cash to get the 2TG to a point where you'd get pretty easily with a later model motor, and then have somewhere further to go as you get the funds.

[SYC02T]

Now we are talking guys, thanks

ed_jza80- What is different in the run in process to successfully run in gapless rings. As it was said earlier, they do sound like the shit but seen a few too many problems from other uses. How is the honing different? ie direction, speed, depth?

Crazyracer - I see your point. I actually nearly put an Sr20det (i know, sorry purists ) in it at least 4 years ago, knowing that standard with exhaust, filter, cooler and a little boost it will be putting over 240hp at the wheels. I chose not to do it mainly because i wanted to learn how to rebuild a motor (the one i already had), along with the sense of satisfaction you get from that. Well it would have been much easier to do the engine swap but i would not know half of what i do now (still lots, lots more to go tho). I would have more money in the bank admittedly.

My specific aim is to build a decent motor that will be able to goto the power cruise type events, track days and drags every noun and again. It must be reliable whilst on the track, but will be driven more sedately on the road ( well most of the time) and i also wish to achieve a 12.5sec pass in street trim. I think it is achievable since i am not that far away already.