LPG scheme

[Born-Enthusiast]

Ok, so you've all probably heard about this government scheme to give $2000 as a grant for people willing to convert to LPG. I would like to know if anyone who is more cluey on this subject can fill me in on the perks and disadvantages of a convert to gas. Now I have just done a quick check on the internet on this subject, my mate and I were talking about using gas on a high compression engine. How high does the compression have to be before gas is recomended if recomended at all? Also in my head you should never soley rely on gas alone, just incase you run out of it. However to run gas with carbies I was considering also converting these to propane carbs whats the perks and flaws? Finnally to increase my boot space of my little ta22. I'm looking at the doughnut gas tank systems at the sake of my spare wheel yay or nay?

[amichie]

If you are going to run dual fuel then you need a modern efi engine that has knock control to make the most of it.
LPG can tolerate more advance and generally requires more static advance than the same engine running on petrol. Engines that have knock control will automatically advance the timing when you change over from petrol to gas.

That said you can still make it work regardless just not as well.

[IN 05 NT]

its alos highly recomended to run your car with the VALVE SAVER valve lubrication fluid, nomatter if its an unleaded head or a leaded style head,

as LPG is a gas, that means it is DRY, and doesnt lubricate the valves.....

were on a 3 month waiting list for our cressy, booked in and ready to go get done,...

blake

[celicapain]

In order of your questions
-CR- lpg is a good fuel for high comp engines, especially if you can get a hold of pure propane(Love you supagas). Ive HEARD of a windsor runnin 13.8-1 comp with gas but didnt talk to the guy myself. highest i can verify is 11.8-1 and that engine would ping its head off on 98 octane then run well on lpg(yes with timing adjustment).

duel fuel- Is a good thing when you run out, is a pain in the arse at all other times.
you have to have twice as much crap under the bonnet which kills performance and doesnt help your fuel economy, and then you have to get the engine to run well with both fuels witch is usually a game of compromises. id say go straight gas, get a GRA mixer and run duel tanks with an isolator on one so if you do run out you can swap over to your backup tank and get another 300k's range.

boot space and lpg dont go together that well. you can use those doughnut tanks but they have two downsides- they dont hold much lpg(only about 40litres) and dont you normally put, you know, a tire in that hole?
you can fit an 80 litre tank where the standard ra23 fuel tank sits( just between back wheel tubs) and if you had to you could run a doughnut tank as well giving you about 800km of range with the standard engine.
Now my finger are tired and i shall retire to my hole in the ground..... .

[mrshin]

I'm always happy to rattle on about LPG... however it's usually easier to just talk to people. PM me and organise to have a yarn sometime if you like.

[Born-Enthusiast]

as LPG is a gas, that means it is DRY, and doesnt lubricate the valves.....

blake

Yeah I heard you get slight heating problems as well due to being already in gas form. however i was looking it up the other day. Now days people are hooking up systems with liquid gas injection, or something like that. I realise i'd have to loose the carbs and go for an EFI system but is this liquid LPG system viable, or is it people blowing fantasy I want attention ideas out thier arse.

celicapain: so 11.8-1 is the lowest compression people run LPG performance wise or is it also good for say between 11-1 and 11.5-1. ha ha as for the spare wheel, well yes i guess most people actually do, but im not really that concerned about having a spare wheel on board. I know it'll save a lot of hassel when. . . (i say when cause it will happen) a tire goes but i would perfer the boot space then the once of. as it is i've had the car for 2 years now and never had a need for a spare tire. As for the actual capacity of the doughnut tank isn't the regular fuel tank in a TA22 only a 45 litre tank anway??

[celicapain]

lpg injection is not difficult, just expensive. by my research it was going to cost me about $5000 for a kit plus tuning(6x injectors $300, ecu $1800 ,tank, lines, fittings). went gas research instead, is not quite as good but a 600 hp system cost me under a grand second hand. Id put one on my new s600 twin turbo because the car would be worth it. except i dont own one.

Regarding compression ratio, those were the HIGHEST compression ratios that people were running, and both the engines im talking about had bigger cams and a bit of headwork. That said they were just old ford V8's so a more efficient 4 cylinder should be able to run even higher CR's. Of course this is a bit complicated as cam and head would need to be played with to get the most reliable/drivable result.
Just remember that the higher the octane, the higher the compression you can run without detonation. standard lpg is around~ 98 octane, but with pure propane its rated at ~130 ron octane, which makes some racing fuels look a bit weak, which should give some idea of its potential. To counter that there is limited hardcore tuning knowledge around, and most of the fuel supply systems around are either crude or limited in their power potential.

as for the 45 litres capacity on the tank, you got to remember that lpg only fills about 80% of the tank, giving you 36L of gas, then gas is only about 75-80% energy content of petrol meaning your 36 litres of lpg has the same amount of power as a 28 litres of petrol.

[peedman]

Do you mean liquid injection or gas injection. Atm, there isnt any manufacturer in AUS that can do a liquid injection system for you (legally that is). And it would be expensive since it is essentially like buying an efi kit. There are plenty that do gas injection tho, however it still uses an lpg mixer which needs to be maintained/serviced regularly along with your car.

I think you need to look carefully at whether or not a ta22 complies with the scheme. From memory it was only family cars that could benefit, correct me if im wrong.

[Born-Enthusiast]

as for the 45 litres capacity on the tank, you got to remember that lpg only fills about 80% of the tank, giving you 36L of gas, then gas is only about 75-80% energy content of petrol meaning your 36 litres of lpg has the same amount of power as a 28 litres of petrol.

Ok, I heard something about the lower energy percentage but I wasn't to sure of what it was. Im seriously considering the RA28 these days for boot space and have the gas tank underneath. I just don't have the money to invest in one as I've already spent a bit on my TA. grr stupid money I should get sponsership ha ha oh that would be good

Peedman i was looking on the government site ausindustry.gov.au and this is they're requirements for eligible vehicles:
"An eligible vehicle:

* Is for private use (not commercial or business use)
* Is a passenger or light commercial vehicle less than 3.5 tonnes Gross Vehicle Mass
* Must be registered in the Australian state or territory of residence of claimant
* Is not subject to a novated lease or salary sacrifice arrangement
* Must be registered for private use in NSW, VIC, QLD, WA, and the ACT
* Must be declared for private use if registered in SA, TAS and NT

The grants are available to registered owners of a new vehicle with an LPG unit fitted at the time of manufacture of the vehicle or registered owners who have a new or used petrol or diesel vehicle converted to LPG on or after 14 August 2006.

For further information, please see the LPG Vehicle Scheme"

They don't bring up anything about age of car or models or anything like that. However the government is sneaky and I would not put it past them to have fine print somewhere.

[amichie]

I got my refund no problem. Filled out the form and dropped it in at Medicare office. Just remember to have exactly the same name on the conversion receipt and the rego papers because they check.

Andrew.

[peedman]

Ah ok that clears it up. You should PM Grega as i recall he had a turbo 2T using gas research carbs for info.

[stradlater]

Yep, grega uses LPG in quite a few things actually. :-)