Old school Front 5 stud conversion & Brake upgrade... MUST SEE

[RAd28]

thechuckster - MS85 hubs won't suffice, i pulled a set of them from the wreckers thinking they were the ones to get, later finding out it was MS65, even so, i persisted to find the bearings for the corona stubs aren't that dissimilar, but the hubs would need to be machined out a fair bit in order to install a sleeve, but then arises the problem of bearing spacing, the bearing shoulder is only about 5mm wide, you could machine this down a bit on both sides, but it's still not enough to make the bearings fit the stub axle and then allow room for the axle nut, and split pin (the nut half covers the split pin hole) on top of that, my engineer (mendham engineering in bris) suggested it'd be roughly $130 per facing... and there's 2 facings per hub for a grand total of 520 bucks, and they said there's still a chance the engineer won't pass it 'cause they need to remove so much material from the bearing shoulder... and when you consider for little more then double that cost you can have custom made hubs (which won't suffer structural weaknesses) rotors, new calipers, i think the hoppers kit starts to make sense.

wilbo666 - i have thought about it... but i think the problem would be in the stub axles once again... and quiet possible the loading as you suggested...

[wilbo666]

thechuckster - MS85 hubs won't suffice, i pulled a set of them from the wreckers thinking they were the ones to get, later finding out it was MS65

thechuckser is very much aware that MS85/MS112/MS123 hubs are not a 'direct' fit. If you re-read his post he says that if you get MS85 hubs and machine the inner bearing race seat diameter (in the hub) 1.938mm larger and with 3.175mm more depth then you can install bearing SKF part 15123/15243/Q and if you machine the outer bearing race seat (in the hub) 3.251mm and with 2.54mm extra depth then you can install SKF part 09067/09195/Q.

The machining (if possible) would then allow you (with the stated bearing and matching races) to use the MS85/MS112/MS123 hubs in place of the mystical MS65 hubs. I also suspect other common hubs such as hilux and mitsu express vans could be modified in this same fashion (however the centre bore for the wheel mounting maybe too large?)

the hubs would need to be machined out a fair bit in order to install a sleeve, but then arises the problem of bearing spacing, the bearing shoulder is only about 5mm wide, you could machine this down a bit on both sides, but it's still not enough to make the bearings fit the stub axle and then allow room for the axle nut, and split pin (the nut half covers the split pin hole) on top of that, my engineer (mendham engineering in bris) suggested it'd be roughly $130 per facing... and there's 2 facings per hub for a grand total of 520 bucks, and they said there's still a chance the engineer won't pass it 'cause they need to remove so much material from the bearing shoulder... and when you consider for little more then double that cost you can have custom made hubs (which won't suffer structural weaknesses) rotors, new calipers, i think the hoppers kit starts to make sense.

As you say? (i think that is what you mean?) another option is to machine the hub and then sleeve the hub such that you can use the stock MS65 bearings into the MS85/MS112/MS123 hubs, however if there is a bearing available such that you do not have to manufacture the sleeve this sounds like a fair amount of extra work that is un-needed? If you meant machining of the bearing, I don't think that is a good idea (and i suspect it will be hard on your tools!).

wilbo666 - i have thought about it... but i think the problem would be in the stub axles once again... and quiet possible the loading as you suggested...

Pre VR holden hubs share the same bearings as MS65, however they are (with the exception being the SV5000 hub -> also rare) cast with the disk as part of the hub, pretty well making them useless unless you are happy to run stock VB,VC,VK,VH,VL,VN,VP commodore disks....

However there are many trailer hubs designed to fit the commodore spindle... and as such there are many trailer hubs with commodore bearings that will fit MS65 spindles and MA61 etc. And it is also possible to get said trailer hubs with ford pattern (5x114.3) as opposed to the holden pattern (5x120).... see where i am going

I don't have a problem with them fitting, I am curios at to their strength suitability

Cheers
Wilbo

[gianttomato]

DBA sell brand new Falcon integrated front hub and rotor. Pretty sure everything from about XY through to XF is identical.

Just machine out MS85 onwards. Works fine.

Think Hilux too. And don't forget Nissan......

[thechuckster]

When i first compared the Ford hubs, i remember finding a parts website for these early fords and they had kits for hub only as well integrated hub+rotor - i just wish i kept the damn URL. The prices were very cheap for new hardware.

RAd28: i was only looking at options that used stock bearings and easily available hubs. I can afford basic machining of hubs. I'd prefer to avoid sleeves on the stub axles.

I think the falcon hub option should be discarded as it makes the offset worse.

the hilux/mitsu express have larger bearings than the MS85 (i have some paperwork at home, will check later tonight) - my concern with using them was the increase in gap between stub and hub.

I think i'll will ammend my post after doing some more bearing searching on the 'lux option.

Can i assume that if a part is listed on the SKF website, the bearing is still available in Australia?

GT: how much metal removal would you consider safe when using the MS85 hubs? (e.g. is the >3mm for the outer bearing too much?) and did you also machine the seat inwards to accomodate incrased bearing depth? or just outwards to accomodate the increased diameter?

[Viper]

Ill chirp in here aswell and add that;
1). Mitsubishi Starion front hubs also use the ms65 bearings and do
2). z31t front hubs.

The both will fit on XA6X,etc. stubs, with the kits for each of the respective hubs, with the z31t hub having about .2mm small oil seal, which could be ignored.

Both cars and parts are rare as hell, so probably not a real big help

Cant think soo many other 5stud hubs that are floating about on the jap side... but that is where a potentially easy swap will probably be found, if at all

[RAd28]

sorry willbo, when i said about machining, that was only refering to machine the hub itself, the engineer i spoke to suggested you would need to remove enough material from the hub to fit a sleeve which would be machined to suit XT130 bearings, there is no way they'd consider machining either the stub axle, or the bearing, both for legal reasons. basically in the end $520 to make MS85 (and similar) hubs fit on XT130 struts...

[thechuckster]

i think any machining of hubs would be limited to opening the hub up to accomodate a non-standard bearing ..e.g. no sleeves, not touching the stub axle, just enough space for a larger bearing.

[prosa63]

gentlmen i have the answer to your brake problems . the vb-vh commodores have a rotor that is one piece with the hub!!! but there is an upgrade for these cars with an after market hub that allows fitment of a vt disc to these cars. the bearings on these hubs are the same as on the ra60/sa63.so if you buy these hubs they bolt straight up to the stub axels.now you will also require 300zx rotors and calipers.
machine the inside diameter of the rotors to 71.5 to fit the hub and drill to holden stud pattern make up a 10 mm spacer to go between the caliper and the stud axel and there you go four piston 280 mm vented 5 stud front brakes.
know here is the fun part you front wheels will have to have an offset of about 30mm as the caliper sticks out about 30mm for the front of the mounting face of the disc.
next, last night i was going threw the dba catalouge and noticed that ba falcon rotors fitted to these hubs will not require machining of the inside of the discs allow the caliper to bolt straight to the stud with out the spacers but the hubs have to be drilled for the ford stub pattern and have about 18 mm taken off the diameterof the disc and the caliper only sticks out about 18 mm past the mounting face of the disc.

i hope this helps steve

[thechuckster]

steve: any link/info on the aftermarket hub you refer to?

am assuming you've gone to PCD of 5 x 120mm? if so, how did you get the rear hubs to the same PCD?

[prosa63]

hi buddy the hubs are sold at any good speed shop for about $275 a pair new the stud pattern is 5x4.75" holden stud pattern. i will be changing this to 5x 4.5" soon wich is ford stud pattern.
buddy on the rear i have a 9" diff with moser 35 spline axels so that fixed my problem for the rear .

steve

[o_man_ra23]

Hmm... as much as farkin around machining discs, then finding rare callipers, and buyin rotors, and redrilling crap, and matching bearings, and stuffin round with offsets, and all the other shit your talkin about soudns like fun... I think that the Hoppers kit, for the lack of muckin about, and the major overkill that they are anyways, is well worth the $1100+ that they are askin

Cheers, Owen

[RAd28]

amen to that...

and we're gonna have to finalise a deal sometime this week to take advantage of the price, so for one last time... who's in? and what exactly are you after?

[wilbo666]

gentlmen i have the answer to your brake problems . the vb-vh commodores have a rotor that is one piece with the hub!!! but there is an upgrade for these cars with an after market hub that allows fitment of a vt disc to these cars. the bearings on these hubs are the same as on the ra60/sa63.so if you buy these hubs they bolt straight up to the stub axels.now you will also require 300zx rotors and calipers.
machine the inside diameter of the rotors to 71.5 to fit the hub and drill to holden stud pattern make up a 10 mm spacer to go between the caliper and the stud axel and there you go four piston 280 mm vented 5 stud front brakes.
know here is the fun part you front wheels will have to have an offset of about 30mm as the caliper sticks out about 30mm for the front of the mounting face of the disc.
next, last night i was going threw the dba catalouge and noticed that ba falcon rotors fitted to these hubs will not require machining of the inside of the discs allow the caliper to bolt straight to the stud with out the spacers but the hubs have to be drilled for the ford stub pattern and have about 18 mm taken off the diameterof the disc and the caliper only sticks out about 18 mm past the mounting face of the disc.

i hope this helps steve

Umm, pretty sure I've already said that VB->VP commodores share the same bearings as the MS65 etc in this thread if you want to read through. The thing is most ppl don't want to even pay $275 for hubs...tho that isn't the worst price I have seen.. (btw where are they from?)

Cheers
Wilbo

[japmuscle]

Hi. i have an RA23 and recently i have become very interested in upgrading to 5stud. I own a GX81 (Mark II) half cut and i test fitted basically the entire front suspension to my car. Massive positive camber. I am sure this is because of the strut-hub offset angle (it probably has an official name i just dont know it). This angle was estimated to be around 13.5-14, with the original RA23 strut-hub offset angle being around 8-9. This picture:

Click me.

proves that the xA6X strut gives positive camber as spoken here:

smokey228:
the only time you will get positive camber from this discussion is if you use an xA6x strut of any sort (the MA61 series will cause more positive camber than an RA60 series but both will still cause positive camber) into your xA23/8/40. This would not be an issue if you are going to do the hoppers stoppers route as you are not changing the strut.

I would be very interested in a complete strut/coil/shock/caliper/rotor/hub upgrade BUT, $1100odd even after discount, for just the hub/brakes, is considerable for someone you could call unemployed. i am interested in the RT142 corona strut. negative camber can't hurt for improved cornering. would this hoppers stoppers kit be able to suit that particular strut or another with more camber (lower strut-hub offset angle eg <7.5degrees)?

PS i am considering the hoppers kit as a final resort but only with the 25% discount

[RAd28]

hoppers kit is custom made to suit your strut to the best of my knowledge, if you follow the links shown early in the thread, you'll see the hoppers catalogue link, and last item is celica/corona kits... so long as you have a strut from either, i don't see there being any problems what so ever...

just a reminder for everyone interested... 5 days till we loose those prices... PM me your DEFINITE interest ASAP please...