AE111 Suspension Upgrade (Street Use): Coilovers V conventional, sway, brace bars etc

[GeeEss]

Hi there,

Saw a comment on a recent thread "Re: Superstruts or not ?" & thought I'd ask readers thoughts regarding suspension upgrades for the AE111.

I've never been 100% happy with the handling on my AE111. The car can be quite vague around centre; wiggle the wheel 1/4 turn & bugger all happens. It gets better at speed but has never felt like the paragon of handling many say it is.

I replaced both lower arm & figure-8 on LHS & recently ordered same for RHS after I noticed the car corkscrewing down on RHS corner under braking & also coming down off speed bumps.

There is also some slight trembling when I turn the wheel; so maybe I should have o/hauled the steering pump rather than swapping it for another 2nd hand one. . .

At any rate I was about to order a set of BC Coliovers (they've had a pretty good rap on various forums) when I came accross a guy on the Sales forum with an AW11 who is selling his because he reckons they're too harsh for road use (wants to replace with Tokicos / Eibachs).

Would appreciate people's thoughts on pros & cons of BC/other coilovers Vs conventional springs / shocks on an AE111.

PS: Was also looking to put TRD front / rear sway bars on car but they're NLA - what comparable alternatives are there?

PPS: Any thoughts on UR brace bars ( you can spend a lot of $$$ if you go nuts & get every one - are they worth it & if so which particular ones make a real difference? )

Regards

GeeEss

[TERRA Operative]

I'll post up my PM for the benefit of others with similar inquiries if you don't mind.



If you have superstrut, you can't use normal coilovers. You need to get superstrut coilovers. There aren't many manufacturers left, but a scour iof Yahoo JP will sometimes turn up a set of TRD, Tein or similar, otherwise there is one Taiwanese manufacturer who is making them (I can't remember their name though, BC, ISC or one like that).

When I had the TRD coilovers in my AE101 Levin (now being transplanted to another Levin), the handling was fantastic. Even with the stock dampers and King low springs (standard AE101 springs will fit) the handling was great. Are you sure your dampers aren't shot? My handling suffered when my stock dampers started leaking so I went the TRD's.

My choice is to go the coilovers if you can find a set. But specify 6kg fronts and 4kg rears (not the more common selection of 8kg fronts and 6kg rears, which is only really suitable for track etc)
Also, for swaybars, just stick an UR rear bar in and leave the front alone. The UR sway bars are good (and the rear is as thick as a TRD item anyway, I have a full set of TRD bars that replaced the UR rear one I had).

If you are finding the car has a 'dead spot' in the centre of the steering, make sure it's aligned properly (an alignment at a tyre shop is rarely a proper alignment), make sure your tyre pressures are good (I used to run 38 PSI or so) and also make sure there is no play in the steering, don't forget to check the tie rod ends too.


Oh, lastly, I run about 2 degrees negative camber and a few degrees toe out on the rear to liven the back end up a bit.

[mattysshop]

i'm reading very good things about Fortune Auto Coilovers (USA brand)... with thier digressive piston design and much bigger internals, from all reports make for a very very high quality ride...

i've got a set of the 500 series, in 9k F and 6K rear for my IS200 arriving today/tomorrow from Barry (BAZDA) at MRP, they are valved for street, but on the harder settings would be capable of some track abuse...

i've been reading stuff on Mitsi Evo forums about people replacing thier HKS Hypermax, and teins etc with Fortune Auto's and being gobsmacked about how much better the ride quality and overall performance is...

on the slightly cheaper side, MRP do thier own version of the cheaper ISC/G4/BC etc etc, but with a bit better quality i'm led to believe...

i was going to run these on my IS200, but then paid the extra to get the better ride quality, as i didn't want it to be bouncing all over the place from little discrepancies in the road, as it is afterall my wife's daily drive!

i would speak to Bazda, he seems more than happy to help with all my queries regarding this..

[GeeEss]

Thanks for the info Terra, much appreciated.

FWIW; there is a guy I know who has a set of used TRD S/S coilovers. He says they aren't leaking oil; wants about $1300 for them which is about same price as the new BC / BR items. I was wondering which way to go. I would prefer to go the TRD units but have no idea how much life they have left in them. Can they be rebuilt if/when they do start to leak; can you get the proper TRD seals / parts etc to do so and how much would it cost ?

Re. wheel alignment. I was certainly going to do this; after I replaced the RHS lower arm / figure-8 but I had the same concern; i.e. that my local tyre outlet wouldn't know the proper (or optimum) F/R alignment settings for my car. Would appreciate your suggestions re. front end Camber / Castor / Toe-in settings so I can advise them.

Cheers

GeeEss

[GeeEss]

I had a look at the Fortune Auto coil-over specs; quite interesting; also like the uni-directional adjustment on the pillow ball. I had similar units custom made for the FX by K-Mac. Not as susceptible to shock loads perpendicular to the slot apparently.

Thinking about this a little more I am definitely swinging towards coil-overs (my only ??? is their durability); they really do seem to offer a better ride / handling compromise than conventional suspension.

I spent a lot of money on the suspension of my other car <AE92 FX >; i.e. Whiteline sway bars, springs, adj camber bolts, UR Braces, K-Mac custom pillow ball fr mount @ above, Superpro bushes etc. . . and while the car is good on a smooth road/ track, its quite harsh as a daily; that poor old 24 year old shell really takes a pounding on Sydney roads. I will be R/R the super-pro shod rear transverse links with new OEM, rubber bushed units - should stop the drumming through the rear at least.

I drove another FX (now Willofan's) before he bought it; all the previous guy had done handling wise was throw a $1000 K-Sport Coilover kit in it. I frankly preferred the ride/handling combination; especially the damping control - it had an appreciably better ability to soak up bumps & pot-holes than my car while still having great handling.

Thanks for the info guys; think I'll hold off on these BCs until I've researched this a bit more.

[TERRA Operative]

The TRD coilovers are rebuilt by replacing the sealed shock absorber insert. They ran to $440 each corner trade price from Toyota AU last time I checked.
Probably worth talking to Amemaya for pricing and availibility from Japan.

The alignment specs are the same for AU Corollas, just dial in a bit of negative camber and a little toe out at the rear to get it around the corners a bit better.

[gixer]

I have owned an AE111 for quite a few years now, had to replace the usual superstrut links, lower arms. I fitted Japanese Espelir springs and KYB Gear climb shocks all round, the parts were bought new. The only reason I changed the shocks/springs was that the standard ride height was shockingly high, like a 4wd!!!

The combination of the Espelir springs and Gearclimb shocks is really bad unless the road is smooth, on Adelaide roads this combination has ruined the car. But having said that, at the track and on smooth hills roads the car is suprisingly good, many a car has been shown up on the twisties by my AE111. If I do a 'bounce' test, the car front or rear doesn't move at all, the only give is in the tyres, at first I thought maybe it being so low, it was resting on the bumpo stops, but there is plenty of piston travel. I would not use these again and if I wasn't so lazy I'd swap them out!!

The shock/spring combo doesn't work with the standard ABS calibration very well either, when braking the ABS is constantly going off on rough roads, get corrugrations in the , start braking and the ABS goes nuts due to the high rebound rate of the Gearclimb shocks, the wheel remains lightly loaded on the road, it also picks up a rear wheel at the drop of a hat which causes the ABS to go off if you are braking at the same time, say turning into a driveway.

[GeeEss]

Thanks for the feedback. . .

After analysing all this I think I’m going to rain-check the spring / shock upgrades until I address other issues. I think that in my impatience to rectify the cars issues – I’ve gone off half-cocked without considering the overall situation.

I have realised that my main sources of my dissatisfaction are;

1. Cork-screwing / assymetric response under braking / suspension compression, and response to uneven road surfaces (tramlines badly, wanders across road irregularities)
2. Vague at dead ahead / sloppy turn in, non-linear steering response, rubbery trembling of steering wheel & resistance opposing direction steered).

The above bothers me more than how it handles - though it does roll, yaw & pitch too much - really kneeling over onto o/side front tyre on tight bends.

Looking at this objectively I think I first need to address issue 1 by by replacing lower control arm+figure-8 hinge arm. I can twist the RHS spring perch about 1-2 mm by hand, the LHS (whose arms I replaced recently) not at all so I think it's safe to say this is an area that needs looking at.

I will give the car a wheel alignment after I change the RHS arms to (hopefully) eliminate these as contributing faults.

Regarding the steering I diagnosed that the rack and / or pump were probably suspect a few months ago but as I mentioned took the cheap option & replaced them with other 2nd hand units. $250 later the steering is now "average" instead of terrible. Problem lessened but not eliminated.

I’ve decided to put a seal kit thru the spare pump to see if it improves accuracy/feedback. If this doesn't make a difference I'll consider stumping up for a Rack rebuild.

Regarding yaw & pitch I will stick a stiffer rear roll bar (& possibly brace bar) on it & see if that improves the understeer.

If, after all this I then feel like uprating the springs & shocks I might; considering the info I’ve had to hand so far – punt on an Eibach+Bilstein* combo; and maybe pillow-ball front mounts for sharper turn-in.

* Or maybe NOT; considering the WTF pricing I've gotten so far on Bilstein shocks ($700ea); let alone Coil-overs ($4.5K to spare, anyone?). Will check if Konis avail for SS s/where at saner prices


Thanks again.

GeeEss

[TERRA Operative]

Don't bother with body bracing beyond a strut brace (which comes factory fitted). The chassis is stiff enough as it is, certainly stiff enough to lift a wheel when driving up a gutter with little flex.

I would start by making sure your existing suspension linkages are in good repair, the steering system is up to scratch and then look at upgrades, starting with a rear swaybar.

[GeeEss]

Don't bother with body bracing beyond a strut brace (which comes factory fitted). The chassis is stiff enough as it is, certainly stiff enough to lift a wheel when driving up a gutter with little flex.

I would start by making sure your existing suspension linkages are in good repair, the steering system is up to scratch and then look at upgrades, starting with a rear swaybar.

Your ears must've been burning Terra; I was on eBay checking out an UR brace & sway bar thinking exactly the same thing - that when I jack up the front wheel, the back wheel comes up too & I can still open / close the door easily. .

Do You know how much stiffer the UR bar is over OEM?

[DreadAngel]

Unless the UR bar is a 3pt rather than the standard 2pt, I wouldn't bother with it. The stock strut brace is a /\ shape so while its somewhat reinforces the front end, it allows for flexing/shifting in certain direction. If you remove the /\ and place a 2pt --- then you lose the truss shape rigidity therefore different and perhaps more flexing. 3pt triangle/truss shape like the TRD, you will feel the reduction.

If your car is a BZ-R then there is a lower tie bar/support brace to the rear welded in from memory.

There are a few brands that do complete AE111 Coilovers [TRD, Tein, GAB, etc], I think BC, BR?, HSD and ISC? do them too but they're a cut and weld proposition with your existing banana arm so dunno how much you like that idea... Of course do check with them first I don't remember which ones come complete.

The dead centre issue... Hmmm... Is the steering shaft noisy? vibrates? if so get some nice grease and lub it up, that helps it some. Check the rest of the steering and your P/S too for leaks etc. I did a flush with the P/S and it felt a lot better.

What's the spec of your current Footwork? [Suspension, Wheels, etc] then I can help you out a little more =)

[GeeEss]

Steering shaft isn't noisy - pretty sure most issues would be fixed by R/R of RHS arms; O/H of Pump (and Rack?) and inserting a stiffer rear sway bar*.

Shocks are OEM; 15X6.5wheels+Bridgestone RE-001s.

PS: Spent a hour on eBay trying to find a UR bars (i.e. rear sway*; brace) cheaper than $270* on eBay AUS. They're ~ I/2 AUS price in Malaysia but retailers won't ship o/s. No TRD units on Yahoo Japan/ Singapore/ HK either. . .

[Bazda]

We do SS coversions with our MRP Coilovers.
None of the coilovers above come with the bottom banana leg. You have to cut your existing one off and weld the shock foot to it.
We supply brand new Toyota OEM banana legs welded to our coilovers. The cost adds another $300 to our Macpherson strut coilovers.
All our coilovers are custom valved after many years of R&D getting the feel which we think suits the Corolla the best.

http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/mrp...ae86-more.html

Brands like BC, HSD etc all use the same valving across all their coilovers which isnt ideal for performance. Its keeps their costs down when manufacturing.

We are also offering Fortune Autos which have very very good valving. All the R&D is done in USA and the coilovers are valved in USA. But they dont offer anything for SS corollas. Only Macpherson.
http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/mrp...echnology.html
http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/mrp...series-g2.html

[TERRA Operative]

The UR strut brace is a 3point item, so it can help, but save your money and don't bother for now, your problems lie elsewhere (plus the design looks a bit wierd I reckon).
The rest of their gear is prerty much pointless for the AE chassis apart from the swaybars and maybe the fender braces (maybe).
IIRC, the stock rear bar is 17mm and the UR one is 19mm, so it is a worthwhile upgrade.

Also, listen to Bazda, he knows his shizz

[DreadAngel]

^

I won't comment on UR either XD

AE111 BZ-R is 18mm iirc or 19mm, checked TRD and they said their [Now discontinued] Swaybar is NOT for the BZ-R.

PFL BZ-G SS is different and I think TERRA is correct =)

Bazda offers a good choice, from my discussions with him the Fortune Auto have the qualities I love from Bilstein, Ohlins, etc. They also have the entire unit done for you rather than you having to go and do the cutting and welding yourself. You'll have to discuss with him about the proposition of rebuilding etc.

So apart from Fortune Auto, you have Koni [Heasman] and Teins you can get Superstreet [Pretty luxurious ride imo] unsure if you can get Flex/Monoflex for SS anymore. Both of these can be rebuilt in Australia [Heasman for Koni, Fulcrum for Teins]. TRD as TERRA pointed out you can carry out basic rebuild yourself. You'll have to keep watching over Yahoo Auction JP or Upgarage for the TRD or GAB units.

Like Terra said fix up your other issues first, then when its all done you'll get a better assessment of what you need ^_^