S13 suspension (front and rear) into MZ11/Ma61 *LCA'S???*

[Johnzoku]

S13 suspension (front and rear) into MZ11/Ma61

After give this thread a good read (http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12042) and weighting up my options ive decided to tread the similar path with my MZ11 as the AE86 guys have with (if permitting) a few variations on there approach.

Parts im using so far

S13 stub axle – Hub.
SR20DET brake calipers and disks.
S13 front coilover struts & camber plate
S13 front strut bar – the type with adjustment on either side.
S13 KYB 4 step adjustment rear shocks (still working on this idea, ill go into this one soon).
EF/EL XR6 springs (not sure on front or rear on this one just yet, ill work this one out soon too).
S13, S14 or 910 TRX bluebird (again not sure in this one either) Tie rod ends.
Everything else im planning to hopefully get away with using the stock parts.

Benefits
-Ive read that mz11/ma61 ball joints are similar to S13 (as you’ll see im my info) so I decided to try bolt everything on to the standard ball joint with LCA’s which means no track increase and no unnecessary negative camber, the camber plates should take car of that one.
-S13 coilovers are a pleny on the net. I just saw a set of 180sx Tein’s go for a little over 200 just today. Compare that to a newly built pair of Mz10 fronts on yahoo auctions what were going for 70000yen, so they would have cost me about 1100 to get them here. Also was going to build a set myself but at the end of the day I added the cost up and the S13 conversion was the better option.
-Bigger brakes. 280mm dia. Rotors.

Down falls.
Need to run spacers with low offset wheels, so at the moment I cant run my stock MZ11 wheels, also the stock soarer wheels don’t accept the Nissan wheel nuts.
Might run the Toyota wheel studs to get around this, or bolt on spacers.

Ball joints.

MZ on the left and S12 on the right (R31, S12 and S13 are the same)
Are these similar enough to be safe?
The stub axle fits very snug, might run a 2mm washer so I don’t run out of thread.

Tie rods.
I haven’t got a pic, but there’s about a 1.5mm difference between the mz11 tie rod end and the s13 stub axle (mz being smaller) so im not totally confidant on that one. So im planning on going the S13, S14 or 910 TRX bluebird tie rod ends providing they are the same thread to the mz inner tie rods. Interesting thing with this part is that I connected the mz11 tie rod back on to the s13 hub and there’s about a 10mm difference so im pretty sure I could just adjust that part out no need to change the inner rods (although I need new ones anyway).



These pics are with the wheel straight, there’s about a 5 degrees difference from the original that’s pointing the wheel towards the rear.

S13 rear struts. Picked these up cheep, there KYB 4 step adjustment rear which had RsR springs on them as well (got them cuz they were pretty cheep)

these have similar length strokes, although the mounting point for the strut top in about 70mm further down on the s13 so im not to sure on how to fix that problem.
Also. There’s a pretty big difference with the mounts at the bottom. Anyone got an idea on bushes I can use to have the transition between the two? Ive been thinking of making a steel transition piece so I can use some after market mz11 bushes, but also maybe just cutting off the mz11 shock bottoms and welding them into the s13 strut. Any ideas? Ill measure these up soon.


That’s what ive go so far. Any suggestions or ideas would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

[thechuckster]

please don't try to swap and re-weld the bottom bushes of the shocks. Would be far more simpler to change the lower bracket where it attaches to the trailing arm.

rear struts: If you removed the stock spring and relied on the coil-overs for shocki+spring, you'd rip-out the top mount in the chassis - it's not strong enough to take that load.

Search for Wilbo's threads about MA61/MZ1x rear suspension - tells you more about those spring seats and other useful stuff.

If anything could be done, it's be a coil-over in place of the spring with something attached to the lower spring seat to suit the bottom of the coil-over. You'd still have the issue of needing a pillow-ball style top mount.

[Johnzoku]

Im not trying to run s13 coilovers in the rear, both top and bottom mounts wouldn’t be strong enough, im well aware of this and although its done in a sprinter I still wouldn’t trust it. Im just running the s13 struts without the springs.

Yeah, I didn’t think the idea of cutting and welding the oem bottom strut was a good idea. I think im just going to have to get some transitions machined up for me. I’d prefer doing this than changing the bottom shock mounting points. In making a transition piece might make it easier for others to run s13 in the rear also later on who want to run s13 after market struts. I plan to run two way adjustable struts down the track with out the springs effectively making them height adjustable struts, so you can run really low to really high with out having to worries about short or normal stroke shocks, also it will make the conversion easier since its a lot harder coming across a pair of front s13 shocks rather than a full set.

Im planning on still designing up some adjustable spring perches like my idea I wrote about in this thread http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18348
But that’s on the back burner at the moment.

[Johnzoku]

Ok, did some measuring and some thinking and came up with a transition piece that should do the trick. It involves pressing the original s13 bushing out and replacing it with the transition and new ma61 bottom bushing. Didn’t get accurate measurements as the s13 bushing is still in the strut and I want to measure up a brand new ma61 bushing as well.

Did some quick drafting (sorry for the poor quality, but there quick) to show what I come up with
Any thoughts?

What sort of tolerance should I use for the bushing? As in how much smaller should the hole be for the bushing to fit into?

[pisso001]

Hey mate just a thought on using your stock MA61 LCAs.. Corect me if im wrong but as i understood it they used S13 or Cressy LCAs because the the strut and hub design for S13 gear is defferent and more compact and therefore if you used your MA61 LCAs you would end up with possitive camber.. Maybe you can correct this with the camber tops dono.. Just a thought though.. Good luck. Ill be watching how you go for when i do this conversion...

Thanks,

Pisso.

[slipway NZ]

thinking of going down this path on my drift z10, going to go for a full set of s13 BC coilovers, remove the rear coilover spring and just use them as rear adj lenght shocks.

Gana keep std z10 brakes and make a threaded piece up to thread the coilover into, and just re drill the strut tops to suit the s13 camber plates. Also going to make up some MX83-z10 RCAs, ill be using the MX83 steering arm as its atleast 20mm shorter and fits the balljoint.

Also for some for front track you can use GX61 lower arms, they look to be about 40mm longer and will bolt up.

Also going to do the rear camber mod aswell with the Bmw camber bolts, gana try make up some sort of adjustable rear swaybar too so ill keep ya posted.

Id try to keep the the std toyota stub axle as it seems to be what the japs do.

anyways will let ya know.

[Johnzoku]

thats one of my concerns i have at the moment. i figure i can always change to a longer lca later on if i cant dial it out to a negative camber.

how well does the gx61 lca fit up? are they similar bushes and can you still run your swaybar and radiius rod with out redrilling?

i was thinking of keeping the std stub axle but after much thought doing so would involve cutting and i wanted to make this almost bolt in since i havnt seen it done just yet.

i think the only cutting/drilling work will be when i do the strut tops... ill be redrilling the cars for the s13 rotation.

keep us posted about the Bmw camber bolts, sound like an interesting approach, ive seen some of the S12 IRS guys looking into it but i dont think they have an answer jsut yet.

other news.


you'll definitely need to run at leased a 15mm spacer with stock soarer rims, unsure of other after market rims with low offset but i but the sr setup in my rims and they rubed pretty bad.

[slipway NZ]

yea, the gx61 are a straight fit, should be enough play in the bushes not to have to drill the holes out.

Yea just duno about using the nissan brakes etc, would rather keep the stock stuff and have toyota wheel studs etc, plus its fukn with ya camber all suspension geometry, abit of a gamble i think...

yea the bmw bolt mod is choice. =easy too, just slot the outer hole on the rear control arm and its sorts it, mate is getting 0 degree camber now on his tt142.
Def need it if you wana drift, stuff all control and traction with all the neg camber.

[Johnzoku]

Gana keep std z10 brakes and make a threaded piece up to thread the coilover into, and just re drill the strut tops to suit the s13 camber plates.

yeah ive seen what your talking about as well, some guy on macfactor or jzx project did some thing similar. thought that was a pretty good idea untill he was asking like 200us for a pair... hummm.... it was a bit much, but in hind site might not have been such a bad idea.

i think changing to the nissan brakes wont do much, there both one pot front and back and SR20det brake masters are 15/16th's which are the same for soarers so i think were right on that one.

the bmw mod sound real good compaired to what the guys on celicasupra are doing... welding on two tabs and a camber bolt. enlongating one hole is a piece of piss... espically if im going low down styles for drifting

*EDIT* - i went looking for these weld on sleves and its a very very good idea but

-PRICE IS $300US NOT including shipping and I need to know what coilover you are going to use. PM me for details
-IF there is interest, i will make batches and lower the price.

yikes!!!

[slipway NZ]

yea, i big engineering place should be able to tread some tube to the same thread.. wouldnt be 300us a pair too

[Johnzoku]

im going to hit up some places friday arvo and see what i can come up with.

if there 200 or under for a pair ill be sold!!!

ive been adding this conversion up and the extras like tie rod ends and spacers are going to put it up to as much as a custom set using toyota struts.

[Crazyracer]

If you're going to go with the Nissan struts, one of the big benefits is that you can use the good brakes (4 spots calipers and big vented discs) of all kinds of other Nissans and they pretty much bolt straight up.

S14 and S15 (Silvias) and Z32 (300ZX), and R32,33,34 (Skyline) brake calipers are all 4 spot and all bolt up to the S13 strut (Brembos on R34 may be different - not sure). Some are alloy and some cast iron. They come with different size rotors, so you have to match the rotor to the caliper.

They are all 5 stud, so you'll need to re-drill the disc if you're going to stick with the 4 stud S13 hubs, or you can buy 5 stud S13 conversion hubs, but they can be pricey. The alternative would be to use an S14 or S15 strut which has 4 spot brakes to start with and 5 stud hubs. The bottom ball joint is bigger on them though, so you would have to check out how that would fit in with your plans.

BTW, Import Bitz in QLD has the weld on sleeve kits including the threader tube, platform nuts, lock nuts and spring top hat for AU$275 a pair + shipping. They're Koni bits so they may be cheaper from your local Koni dealer (or then again maybe not??)

http://www.importbitz.com.au/suspension.htm

You'd still need to get some small diameter "racing springs" to suit but King Spings does these pretty cheaply in pretty much whatever rate and dimensions you want.

I've seen some old Datto 1600 rally cars with threaded tubes and nuts bought from plumbing suppliers. Looks a bit nasty, but does the job and would be pretty cheap.

[Crazyracer]

Just remembered another option for threaded strut tubes. Murray Atkin Racing has alloy thread tubes and adjustable spring platform nuts for speedway cars. You weld a steel ring onto your strut and these things sit on top.

Last time I checked I think they were under $100 a pair. You'll need the top hat too, but he probably has them too.

He's in Bentons Rd Moorooduc (Vic). Phone (03) 5978 8445.

He'll take Visa over the phone and post things to you.

[rsdeo]

S13 hubs will not fit stock MZ11/Ma61 cars. Differnet design all together. You could use on the front S13 hubs if you use the whole S13 strut assembly.

[Johnzoku]

ok, i thought about threaded strut tube conversion, but that requires fabriction, say about 200 for a front pair of threaded tubes with spring hat seats and springs, but then you need them fabricated so thats xxx amont, plus an after market shock with adj. costing from 300 odd up and then you need the camber plate, the cheepest ive found is from the guy i deal with that buys of yahoo auctions for me. 275 with ems shipping for a couso camber plates.

so add that up and its 775 before fabrication and if you go cheeo dampers as well.
i figured the thew s13 is a better choice, you can coil overs for the front with hight adj. damper adj. and camber plates for 200 bucks. and all you need to do is sort out the hub brakes set up which is a bit more but do some digging and you can get a good deal.

+ with the s13 hubs you can up grade to bigger brakes pretty easily and also better coilovers as well.

but the idea silpaway sugested is a pretty good idea, i was jsut detired by the price the guy wanted for the tubes so i didnt give it a second thought till recently. but the only hard part about this is you need to find a two step height adjustable coilover. and there alot harder to track down.