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Thread: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

  1. #1
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    Default Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Hello everyone!

    So since i started to play around with the 4AFE in rwd and got it to work ok, i now till continue with speeduino ecu to learn some more about mapping and all that

    The first step is to redo the ignition since the current solution with a 3D printed mount might not hold forever. So the plan is to use coil on plugs, i heard that the 1zz will work with some sanding?

    So to get it working with a piggyback i would need a crank angel sensor. I just discoverd that the 7AFE have this stock on its pulley and a mount for the sensor on the oilpump.
    Is there any possibility to change the crank timing pulley and use the 7afe or do anyone got i idea how i would be able to make this to work?

    In works case scenario i might be worth to just buy a 7afe block maybe?

    Thankfull for any idea/or info about this, cant find much outside all the 7age builds

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    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Without seeing how much room you have to work with, the two possibilites that come to mind are... (1) remove the high tension wires and cap from the factory distributor and install it in the factory position, and... (2) fit a 36-1 toothed wheel to the factory crank pulley/harmonic balancer. So long as you have a rpm signal you can run wasted spark ignition and batch fired injectors.

    If you can get cam and crank signals from the wheels in the distributor base, you can run sequential ignition and injection

    Cheers... jondee86

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    The area of clearance is slim to non, can show you what im dealing with later. But your first option gave me some thoughts, would i with a 4+1 distributer be able to run the cops with just the IG+ signal? or how do you mean?

    Yeah been looking on like ford edis system triggerwheel and all that, but thott that if i came on the 4a original i might be a smoother/ better looking solution to the problem? but might just end up being harder to do?

    The plan is to first take control of ignition and just get it to work with COP's dont have to be sequential, but later on i would like to do stand alone ecu with the speeduino and do both sequential ignition and injection

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    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Apparently you can run COP's in batch fired mode by using the IGt signal...

    The factory ECU will require an IGf signal, and the diagram shows one way of getting that. An even simpler method would be to just use the IGf signal from one COP if they are 4-wire COP's. I haven't tried this setup and still don;t understand why batch firing works, but plenty have done it. Personally I would replace the ignition coil with a small relay coil which should produce the required voltage spike feedback signal without having a high voltage coil discharge to keep under control.

    This arrangement does mean that all four COP's are firing every 180deg of crank rotation, so it will probably shorten the coil life, but all good in the short term

    Cheers... jondee86
    Last edited by jondee86; 26-03-2020 at 08:15 AM. Reason: 720/4 = 180 deg... fixed :)

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    That wonderful, i did som measurement though and i will not be able to squeeza the dizzy between the firewall and engine

    So im going for a crank angel sensor, started to 3D-print some prototypes to fit! Even though of making the triggerwheel in abs with metal tips just to see if it works

    I just have one question you probably have a good answer to! If i run a speeduio, or even looking at a edis-4 system to control the trigger of the COP's. How do i let the ECU know the signal so it can runt the injectors?
    Since i wont have a IGT or IGF signal, and the triggerwheel will prob trigger alot more times then the ecu expect?
    Or what kind of singal do the ecu need for the injectors?

    i saw that the 1ZZ coils have a "feedback" pin can i use that?
    Last edited by Ceasar; 13-03-2020 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    I'm watching this thread with interest, im thinking of doing the same thing. I was thinking of making an "electronic distributor" using an Arduino, as you can drive some COP directly from an Arduino as they use a 5 volt signal.(the built in ignighter type) you can also change the dwell time easily with the coding. Ive not tried any of this yet, got as far as testing the code with LEDs and switches to simulate the distrubtor and crank sensors.
    Just a correction on jodee86 post thos coils would be fired every 180 degrees not 360
    I did just come across this too
    https://github.com/dalathegreat/Arduino-Coil-On-Plug

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Liquid that's a really awesome code, went through it but i cant seem to understand if there is a advance on the ignition? otherwise it would work with the triggersignal to the COP's yes!

    I just orderd four 1zz COPS, so this is happening.

    Since the engine is converted to a 4AF i will try and implement the adruino code before i buy a speeduino. But for the conversion back to 4afe (new gen then the one i have build before) i want to first piggyback the original ecu with the speeduino.

    But i have a hard time figiuring out how i could get it to work? since the ecu will trigger the fuel injectors based on the ignition signal, so when i change to a 32+1 triggerwheel how can i translate it to the ecu?

    Im guessing it only needs the G or NE signal? then maybe a feedback from the coils withe IGF? Real rookie in this area haha



    Seems like the codemaker is Swedish aswell so will try to contact him
    Last edited by Ceasar; 16-03-2020 at 10:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Im pretty sure it there are 3 inputs the ignition pulse from the ECU, and two distributor signals, 'Camshaft Reference' & 'Camshaft Position. I would think it gets the advance from the ECU
    if you have a little money to spend you could get a Megasquirt ECU, They are a DIY kit and can do spark with COP.
    http://megasquirt.info/
    I built one years ago and it still going well.
    Last edited by Liquidhandwash; 16-03-2020 at 02:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Sounds about right! but i still cant figure out how i could convert the normal distribute system to a triggerplate and det it to work with the ECU

    Well im a student so my budgets i slim to none, so doing all my projects the cheap hard and slow way. Learn more from that way as well. If i buying a new ecu it will probably be a speeduino

  10. #10
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Wow... I've been busy and lost touch with this thread. Usually older Toyota ECU's get inputs from the VR pickups on the two toothed wheels. The larger wheel with (usually) 24 teeth is the RPM signal for engine speed, and the smaller wheel (often either 4 teeth or just one tooth) provides a reset signal indicating crank position. As I understand it, the ECU counts every tooth on the RPM wheel and resets the counter to zero with the reset signal. Injection and ignition are triggered by the ECU when the tooth count reaches preset values which correlate to crankshaft angles before or after TDC.

    It is possible to run an engine with a single 36-1 trigger wheel and a single pickup. The missing tooth provides the reset but because the ECU does not know if the #1 cylinder is on the compression or exhaust stroke, you are restricted to batch firing both the injectors and the COP's. Factory ECU's use the IGf signal as a safety measure and the ECU will shut down the engine if no IGf signal is received after a certain number of IGt signals have been sent. Aftermarket ECU's sometimes don't require an IGf signal.

    Dwell and timing advance may be set either by the ECU, igniter or even by COP's if they are "smart coils". I think 1ZZ COP's will be "dumb coils" with dwell and advance being set by the ECU. Every ECU has an ignition table (map) that sets the ignition advance based on engine rpm vs load. Similarly, the fuel map varies the injector open time based on engine speed vs load. Dwell (coil charging time) is set by a separate correction table and varies with rpm.

    Actually, thinking back I never had to work out just how the ECU calculated when to fire the spark with a toothed wheel on the crank. I think it has something to do with where the pickup is located ? IIRC the Megasquirt Manual has a decent explanation of the setup procedure.

    Cheers... jondee86

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    i checked my dizzy and i see a the 24 pin trigger wheel and just above a 4 pin trigger wheel? i didnt know it was VR, thott it was Hall-based signal

    oh ok, seems really tricky to fake those signals correctly for the ecu if i dont use the real dizzy sensors im ok with batch for now at least if i can get it to run, but do you have any idea how the 36+1 triggers can be converted to 4 triggers and a reset and get the ecu to accept it? if the ecu dont get a IGF signal, will it still work?

    Would a EDIS-4 module maybe work for the ecu? since it seems to work quite independently at running and would in failsafe work with 10 degree advance, but will send some sort of signal to the ecu and receive a advance?
    http://www.malfamartin.se/14_Edis_ignition.pdf



    Otherwise i se that the only option is to scrap the ECU totally and use the speeduino as the ECU both for ignition and fuel.
    But to get the fuel map and all that sorted makes this project quite huge quite fast.
    Last edited by Ceasar; 17-03-2020 at 06:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    While I'm not afraid to make my own solutions to problems, I prefer to avoid re-inventing the wheel when possible. And being a mechanical engineer I like to keep things simple when I can, so will usually look to adapt existing mechanical solutions rather than get involved in experimental electronic solutions.

    Factory ECU's and distributor ignition systems are well proven and reliable, so if I were in your position, I would first look to get the engine up and running using factory components. And one possible solution would be belt driven distributor along these lines...



    This type of conversion was once offered at a kit for the 4AGE but was superceded by other types of conversions. If you wanted to run COP's with this setup you could delete all the high tension parts and just retain the base with the trigger wheels. I believe that the "feedback" signal may actually be an IGf signal, and if an IGf signal was one of the factory ECU inputs, you will most likely have to provide one to get the system working. Just an option to consider

    Otherwise I see some information here that seems relevant to your situation...
    https://speeduino.com/forum/viewtopi...t=495&start=20

    Cheers... jondee86

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    Haha nice, im a mechanical engineer in the making!
    Well for just original dizzy i have solution close to the one shown.
    Its a 3D printed adapter and mount.




    But im getting in to this mess to learn some more electronic and the mapping part of automotive. But good thread there, i migth just keep the dizzy as it is to run the fuel, but the whole point was to get rid of it and clean up the enginebay mess.
    But can runt it like that until i get the fuel part figured out maybe

    hmm removing the high tension part? how would i go about doing that?

    I really appreciate you input!

    oh the clearance to the firewall for original dizzy is slim, i thott about just keeping the sensor part and put it back but i dont think it will fit.
    Last edited by Ceasar; 17-03-2020 at 10:00 AM.

  14. #14
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    That's a big distributor you have there !!! Does it have the ignition coil built-in to the distributor ?



    Here is a pic of a 4AGE distributor with the cap, rotor and leads removed and replaced with a cover cap. I think if you were to machine the end off the rotor shaft, you could make the cover plate flat. The trigger wheels and pickups are all that remain inside the distributor base.

    Something along these lines would save space and weight meaning your printed bracket would be more likely to survive long term. And although I haven't checked what wheels and sensors the AE101/AE111 distributors have inside, they are even more compact when converted as shown in this pic...



    There are probably a number of distributors from a range of manufacturers that could be adapted to work on your engine. Some form of bush would be required to match the distributor input shaft to the camshaft, but you have the skills to make that happen The aftermarket ECU that I used only needed the signals from the rpm wheel and one of the reset sensors to run my engine with COP's in full sequential (fuel and ignition) mode.

    Cheers... jondee86

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    Default Re: Crank timing for COP 4AFE/7Afe

    haha yeah it's quite big, i call the engine the unicorn thanks to it.
    Yes it have coil and all. seems very similar to the 4AGE but the 4age look slimer in the base then mine. Did som measurements and have 5 cm to firewall and without the cap its 9.5 cm.
    but with the caps is 14.5.
    Without the igniter and some anglegrinder it can become a bit slimmer:


    But i like the idea, to keep it in place but just move it further towards the engine and cap of it. It will work for now at least. But wouldn't this make it possible to run the COP by the IGT signal of the ecu like the 20v can do?

    That's right if i put a crank sensor and run ignition by speeduino i can use the dizzy NE signal to have both cam and crank and run it sequential?

    these pickups are in the 4afe:


    Thanks a lot, will start to tinker about and se how it goes.
    Last edited by Ceasar; 17-03-2020 at 11:17 PM.

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