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Thread: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

  1. #16
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Appreciated Jon. All makes good sense what your saying.

    The iscv is routed back into the boost pipe work incase the iscv was leaking or not closing fully under boost. Hoped this was the culprit but made no difference.

    I've been playing with the closed loop target table (should go into open loop at 100 kpa) but I can't for the life of me work out if the values are in milli seconds or a ratio eg 95 (0.95 lambda = 13.9 afr) the manuallys a bit ambiguous. Anyone ever used a prehistoric link G1? I should bin it but I'm a sucker for a challenge : )

    800 oC EGT seems low so gonna maybe increase the cam overlap to see if it makes a difference. Also gonna double check the turbine/compressor wheel agsin. No play and spins for ever after shut off. Like you say maybe I'm just not pushing enough gas by 3k to spool. Everything I read tho talks about similar set ups hitting 22 psi by 2800 - 3200 rpm. I'm gonna rag the cack outta her n see what happens. I'm running a 3 inch decat so really should help?

    Managed to find a mate today with a proper compressor who's willing to come give me a hand double checking everything boost leak testing. I'm sure I can hear whooshing like a leak coming from somewhere. Fingers crossed he might work it out. There are cats n dogs smarter than me lol sure he will spot something. Fresh pair of eyes works wonders.

    Really appreciate you/everyone taking time to reply to me. All good advice. Will report back soon as I find something.

    Thanks

    Chris

  2. #17
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    While I am thinking about mechanical things... I take it that you are using an external wastegate ? And since the GT2860 appears to have an internal gate, what have you done to ensure that the internal gate stays closed ?

    Cheers... jondee86

  3. #18
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Yeah it's a 38mm external. The internal was welded shut. You know what Jon maybe the welds gone and it's passing??? Glad you asked that cos I'd just dismissed it cos it's welded shut. Think I'm gonna take off the v band/adaptor today and check for sure. Would explain ALOT if it had somehow it had gone. Hoping I can get at it without having to rip everything to bits again.

    Will check ASAP n let you know dude. Thanks for helping me troubleshoot yet again!

    Cheers

    Chris

  4. #19
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Just found this on an Audi forum where a guy wanted to go external and welded his internal WG shut as I did... You might be onto something here Jon. I literally can't wait to go check today!!! I thought my pal did a pretty good job of bench welding it but after reading this...

    Quote...

    034Motorsport said:
    03-04-2013 09:39 AM
    I know you want to save money here and have plans in the near future for a build, but I wouldn't expect two tack welds to hold more than a few weeks at most, if that even. Not only that, but to really do it properly, you really need to have the turbo off the car. Finally, it's not going to seal back up every time if you weld it into a fixed position. What I would consider trying to do would be to get something inbetween the play that the flap has.

    You know the washers that are split in order to keep tension on the nut? What if you were able to get one of those in between the flap and the arm, limiting the looseness? You need to maintain some degree of loose tolerance in order to allow it to seal up properly, but obviously you have too much.

    Welding is going to be a PITA, cost money, and likely not last long at all.
    034Motorsport - Engineering and Manufacturing Performance Hardware & Software Upgrades for Audi Enthusiasts Since 2005.

    YouTube // Instagram // Facebook



    Thanks

    Chris

  5. #20
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcountryboy View Post
    Just found this on an Audi forum where a guy wanted to go external and welded his internal WG shut as I did... You might be onto something here Jon. I literally can't wait to go check today!!! I thought my pal did a pretty good job of bench welding it but after reading this...

    Quote...

    034Motorsport said:
    03-04-2013 09:39 AM
    I know you want to save money here and have plans in the near future for a build, but I wouldn't expect two tack welds to hold more than a few weeks at most, if that even. Not only that, but to really do it properly, you really need to have the turbo off the car. Finally, it's not going to seal back up every time if you weld it into a fixed position. What I would consider trying to do would be to get something inbetween the play that the flap has.

    You know the washers that are split in order to keep tension on the nut? What if you were able to get one of those in between the flap and the arm, limiting the looseness? You need to maintain some degree of loose tolerance in order to allow it to seal up properly, but obviously you have too much.

    Welding is going to be a PITA, cost money, and likely not last long at all.
    034Motorsport - Engineering and Manufacturing Performance Hardware & Software Upgrades for Audi Enthusiasts Since 2005.

    YouTube // Instagram // Facebook



    Thanks

    Chris




    UPDATE... checked the welded up internal wastegate... is still perfectly solidly welded up... no leaks... turbine/compressor wheels look perfect. zero up/down/sideways movement...

    I just dont get it.

    My AFRs where 12.9 - 13.2 rich by 3k 'coming on boost' at 0 psi today lol. is that too rich to spool? Anything at all? i thought boost was mechanical.



    Cheers

    Chris

  6. #21
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcountryboy View Post
    Hey all,

    Just when I thought I was winning...

    Just started using "project [email protected]" as my daily. It's painfully slow lol.

    Pulls strong vacuum, revs clean to 4k (not revved higher as engines done 10 ish miles).

    160 -170 compression.

    Have so far checked smoke/pressure checked..

    All couplers tight. No leaks. Turbo to throttle body holds a measly 8psi no evident leaks lol.

    38mm wastegate is sealing (checked fire ring). Pressure tested to 30psi underwater. No leaks.

    Blow off valve deleted (tested and it leaked so have eliminated it for now).

    Turbo oil drain to sump (tiny leak which is ok I'm told). Sealed this off retested on a hot engine. No change.

    IACV plumbed back into boost piping. No leaks.

    Hoses to MAP/FPR/ecu/boost gauges all checked and replaced...

    Valve seals and injector rings are new.

    50-100 kpa at 2-3k I'm in the 13s with no knock. I can hear a whooshing leak as I give it a bit of loud pedal.

    Thought maybe pressure was getting past the rings but no air coming out the oil cap/pcv breather (deleted the pcv valve). You can literally blow into a inlet manifold hose and no pressure.

    I understand the valves will be open but surely there shouldn't be enough overlap to blow straight out the exh? It's a 3sgte btw. I set no1 cylinder to 20-30 degrees past TDC. Is this right?

    Absolutely stumped how it can pull really good vacuum/compression/no intake/exh leaks but the "intake" leaks pressure faster than a tyre compressor can pressurise it!!!!! (my boost guage hit 2 psi max). You name it I've prob checked it... What am I missing?????? Aaaaarrrrgggggghhhhhhh lol

    Have tried testing from the turbo compressor AND after the TB off the brake booster line.

    Like I say I've smoke tested/pressure tested. No audible leaks or smoke?

    EGTs are in the 800s (rich). Timings at 10 btdc. Cam timings spot on.

    Out of ideas....

    Brakes seem normal could a knackered booster hold vac but leak pressure maybe? The brake booster line has no one way check valve? Normal?

    I can't pin point while driving where the leaks coming from. It "wooshes" at 3k ish Closest 4wd dyno is the other side of yorkshire so not an option.

    Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated. Where do I go next? Buy a proper compressor?

    Cheers all

    Chris

    Ok, so when you say you delted the pcv, how exactly was this done?

    If theres no leak between throttle body and valve you will have vacuum, as you do.

    If theres a leak between turbo and throttle body, you will not achieve boost. This leak is either a wastegate malfunction, or a simple leak.

    I ask about pcv because depending on the method of deletion you could well have vacuum between throttle and valve for unboosted performance, and if the pcv was connected but without the one way valve, then as soon as the throttle is open and boost is created its possibly going to take the path of least resistance and escape the inlet through the pcv into the engine, as 3sgtes are known to have vacuum at all rpms internally, it might gobble up the 8psi your pipes sending it with no ill effects except the lack of boost?

    I feel like its simple. ALmost always when you go down the rabbit hole and you get to the point of suspecting minutia like "too rich to spool", you need to stop, and recheck your previous work with a little more science before you start making leaps of logic.

    You say you hear a wooshing leak, you say you have played with the PCV, you say your pipes hold 8psi, putting all this together, you are making boost but its being lost between compressor and valve someplace.

  7. #22
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Out of interest, I was having a look at some old link software, and I can see how they set the ignition timing up... first column to zero. So actual timing will be the numbers in the table plus 10 degrees if nothing is changed. Then I noticed this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcountryboy View Post
    The manual just said to set the advance to 0 in the configuration menu , then rotate the dizzy to the 10 degree mark on the crank, tighten it down then put the advance back to 40 on the ecu.
    I'm guessing that the 40 is a typo and you meant 10. So I put 10 in the "Static Ignition" box, hit enter, and the numbers in the table changed to the actual kind of ignition numbers that I would expect you to be using...


    Right click and "View Image" for the bigger version

    Just checking to make sure we are both on the same page

    Cheers... jondee86
    Last edited by jondee86; 01-02-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  8. #23
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Yusss... as said above, this should be a simple problem to sort out... but it's not turning out that way. If the turbo is spinning up and creating a decent amount of boost at under 3000 rpm, you should be able to feel the car come alive. If it's not doing that, then obviously the boost must be getting lost somewhere, and not out a 6 mm dia hole either !! Nor is it likely to be the result of small errors in cam timing, ignition timing or fuel mixture. Those things can affect how a turbo performs, but it would take a BIG error to lose virtually all your boost.

    As far as I can tell, since the car drives without any chugging, coughing, pinking, puking, knocking, stalling etc,. your fuel and timing must be near enough. So if you can only get 2 psi at 4000 rpm there must be a BIG leak or restriction somewhere between the air filter and the exhaust tip. Either that, or some unusual combination of other factors that are delaying or even preventing the engine generating boost.

    By now it seems that we have pretty much investigated and eliminated all the obvious leak and blockage possibilities... split hose or coupler (opening up under boost), leaking gaskets, waste gate, ISCV, blowoff/bypass valve etc. Which means that perhaps we do need to look at some of the less likely possibilities... to see if there is in fact a BIG error with timing, or some unexpected factor such as too much intake restriction.

    Mention that as I note that you have two W>A charge coolers in series, and I wonder how much intake restriction they might cause. And I am being persistent with making sure the ignition timing is not way off. Anything that can restrict exhaust gas flow or temperature will have an effect on spool, however, as said above, such things are really in the "grasping at straws" category.

    Cheers... jondee86

  9. #24
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Hey Jon/all,

    Your right. Back to basics. I'm thinking now I must have an exhaust leak AND a boost leak...

    My plan this week on my days off shift...

    Remove the exhaust manifold (sobs into hands) AND remove the big box chargecooler and just run the pwr barrel direct and pretty much start again from scratch. I've bought LOTS of hairspray and Mikalor clamps lol.

    Jon - you may be right about the timing but the manual said the static timing displays just for display it doesn't alter anything. I just put the maximum advance limit to 0 to disable the ecu then set the dizzy to 10 btdc then once set put the max timing limit back to 40.

    Pcv valves just blanked off on the intake and vented on the valve cover to atmosphere. Bit of blow by but the engines got cack all miles on so it seems pretty normal.

    Been trying in vain to attach pics of my timing and fueling maps on my GFs Mac. Will try and post some pics.

    Thanks for the reply again Jon and endless help!

    Will update soon as I get the her to boost!

    Cheers

    Chris
    Last edited by Blackcountryboy; 06-02-2019 at 04:25 PM.

  10. #25
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    OK, found a copy of the Link G Plus manual and I've got it sussed now. The 40 deg setting is a limit on the maximum amount of timing the ECU can apply. And the timing table in the screen shot above is the actual total timing that the ECU will apply (mechanical base timing plus electronic advance). Seems legit

    Before you dismantle the whole car, you could try searching for exhaust leaks with a length of garden hose. Just hold one end to your ear and probe around the running engine with the other end. Exhaust leaks make a bit of noise and should be easy enough to pick up.

    Cheers... jondee86

  11. #26
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    What does the car actually do when you drive it and try to get on boost? Does it just drive like you would expect if it had a massive boost leak, or does it cut and stutter, surge etc.
    What is the MAP limit set to in the ECU? You dont have the boost cut at 2psi or something stupid and simple?
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  12. #27
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Hey Jon/DX20vt

    Too late lol I've had a day to attack it today. Big box CC coolers gone now where the battery used to be and just running direct now turbo to intake with the barrel CC.

    Thinking half places/couplers to leak and less pressure drop even tho the intake temps will prob go up. Will just heat proof lag the barrel if it does the trick.

    Ran out of light/time before I could test it.

    Map limit afaik is set to 230 kpa I think. Good thinking dude will double check.

    It drives well just no boost. Super rich overall but in the lo 13s coming outta vacuum into boost.

    Tightened all my zorst studs 1/8 of a turn today. Seemed pretty solid but def Gonna do the hose trick/spray soapy water soon as I can start her take her for a blast on sun (on nights at work now till sun morning and the weathers terrible till then.

    Plan to triple check EVERYthing sun morning and fit the last T piece to re plumb the ISCV back into the boost pipes n I should be good to go! Gonna brim the tank and whack in bottle of NF octane booster n go for a blast.

    Bin reading loads on MR2.com bout people running GT2860rs's on stock engines/ecu's and hitting 1 bar by 2800 rpm!!! No boost by 3ks def not right. People report a smudge of boost by 1500 rpm! Should be a whiplash machine soon as I cross this last and I pray it's the last hurdle.

    If this doesn't work I'm ripping off the whole zorst manifold off to check the heads not warped etc and then prob swapping out the manifold for stock to see if it helps with the lag.

    Appreciate the replies and help! You guys are the best!

    Will update ASAP.

    Thanks again

    Chris
    Last edited by Blackcountryboy; 08-02-2019 at 04:15 AM.

  13. #28
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    it's a bigger problem than a small leak or warped head... maybe exhaust is blocked with a rag?
    cat (if present) has collapsed?

    either absolutely massive intake leak (big hole), or not enough exhaust flow.. or exhaust is bypassing turbo...
    go back to simple...

    if it doesn't make boost with both your wastegates locked shut... (and you have pressure sensor just after turbo) somethings wrong..

    speakign of which, what are you using to detect boost and where is it plumbed? is anything else on that line? no restrictors or canisters etc>
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  14. #29
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Hey Oldcorollas,

    Your def right. It's intake pre TB or exh. I'm almost done completely rebuilding the intake. Half the length. One CC. Less restriction, pressure drop and pipe work to leak.

    No cats dude, full 3 inch turbo back decat down pipe. If this doesn't work I'm taking off the whole exhaust and jetting the sh1t outta it at work just to be sure the only middle box isn't plugged somehow.

    I'm using the internal LINK map sensor on my ancient laptop and a boost guage. Both seem match and have bin tested. No leaks. Changed all my couplers for Mikalor ones and hairsprayed every connection. To be CERTAIN I'm gonna araldite every coupler then ghetto style duck tape the new entire outta piping! I'm gonna cap off and water pressure test the entire assembly before I refit it. With 22 idle vac that only then leaves the zorst manifold and external wastegate piping where it bolts on to the t3 to gt adaptor.

    Checked n nipped the exh manifold down twice, along with smoke testing it. Found no leaks. Bovs bin deleted. Iscv replumbed into the boost pipes. Also checked the actual iscv. Wastegates bin removed pressure tested and fire ring cleaned n reinstalled. FPR seems ligit n air tight. Brake boosters had a second check valve lol. Checked every connection and pipe for splits. Loads replaced old for new.

    Praying this solves it. Should be in the know by mon. Will let you guys know ASAP if I get lucky and something changes. Man wish I could upload a photo. Engine bay looks completely different now. Rats nest of pipes gone. Turbo to TB pipeworks now direct... less than half a metre in length 3 couplings only. You n Jondee are right. Keep it simple...

    Thanks for the reply/thoughts

    Chris
    Last edited by Blackcountryboy; 09-02-2019 at 06:01 AM.

  15. #30
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 22 vac 0 boost... No leaks???

    Hey all, got her back together today.

    https://youtu.be/0ruR2uTr-RE

    Triple checked everything...

    I "think" I hit 2 psi lol in 3rd at 3k but but I'm still reading most people are at 15psi by then. Engines still running in so been too scared to push any harder... 3k I should be spinning tyres : )

    Just HOW MUCH slower would a tubular manifold spool compared to a stock iron one (3sgte)? New thought...

    One thread said 200 rpm slower but much less restricted up top. Another said 800 - 1k rpm slower???

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDpva-dyPg

    Sorry bout the rubbish view on the boost guage. Taped my phone to the roll cage again lol just to get everyone's thoughts. I blipped from standstill to light throttle 30-40mph 1st to 3rd would expect to see a smudge of boost?

    I'm going crackers...

    Many thanks all

    Chris
    Last edited by Blackcountryboy; 12-02-2019 at 06:06 AM.

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