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Thread: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

  1. #1
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    Hi . . .


    I'm currently running 3SGE Gen 4 "Pink" Denso Injectors on my 4AGE. Specs are 315 cc / 13.8 Ohm / 6 hole . . .


    Car idles well enough (but fuelly) & quite smooth on highway at 3500 rpm+ but low speed running is not that refined.


    ECU logs show maximum injector duty is only 52% at maximum Power / Torque < IIRC @ ~ 6000 rpm in 3rd. >


    I think I'd like to try smaller capacity & more modern (12 hole) injectors to get closer to 80% Duty at max power + see whether slow speed running is improved.


    Question:


    Will OEM/ Denso 1MZ-FE, 3MZ-FE High Impedance 250cc injectors fit / work on a 4AGE with E420d ECU ?


    Both are Top Feed, High Impedance so OK for ECU; look pretty much the same physically. . . . .


    Only thing I'm not sure about is the issue of air assisted + shrouded V non air assisted / non shrouded design.


    AFAIK the 1MZ, 3MZ injectors are non air assisted / non shrouded > I'm not sure what the 3SGE units are. . . .


    Can anyone enlighten me?
    Last edited by GeeEss; 04-07-2016 at 09:53 PM.

  2. #2
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector upgrade

    1MZ are air assisted, 3MZ are not.
    I have both sets of injectors if you need photos for comparison.
    TrackDub - 89' AW11 1MZFE | SlushDub - 89' AW11 4AGZE
    http://www.midrear.net - My AW11 blog of DIY mechanics, grassroots motorsports and driveway shenanigans...

  3. #3
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    Re: 1MZ are air assisted, 3MZ are not. I have both sets of injectors if you need photos for comparison. . . . .


    The part number of the 3MZ-FE injector I'm thinking of getting is 23209-20030.

    According to ToyoDIY it is used in both 1MZ-FE & 3MZ-FE < Lexus ES300, RX330, RX400h, Camry, Toyota Camry & Kluger. . . as below;

    http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/xref?s=23209-20030&mG=on

    AFAIK this particular injector is NON-air assisted. . .


    1. Will this injector fit in OEM 16V 4AGE Fuel rail?

    2. Is this (NON-air assist) injector compatible with 4AGE fuel rail / combustion chamber?



    GS
    Last edited by GeeEss; 04-07-2016 at 09:53 PM.

  4. #4
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector upgrade

    Put standard small port injectors in?

  5. #5
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by dnegative View Post
    Put standard small port injectors in?
    ^^^this.

    What have you done to the engine, other than ITB's, to warrant having larger injectors than stock 4AGE ones?
    Unless you have done some mods to majorly improve power (eg, cams, valves, etc), then i would question the need to change.


    How are you tuning the engine? TPS VE mode (aka, TPS x RPM tuning)?
    Read here - http://www.adaptronic.com.au/tuning-...o-set-them-up/

    With individual throttle bodies you are going to want to tune in TPS VE mode.... because it's very hard to get a stable MAP signal at lower throttle opening, even with a vacuum manifold (aka. vacuum block).
    This could be a cause of your issue?
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  6. #6
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    That is exactly the point; the injectors* the Adaptronic dealer supplied with the harness were (IMO) too large from the very beginning.

    FWIW I did tell the guy that they were going on an N/A engine and that the maximum power I expected to make was 160HP @ Fly. . .

    * Current Injectors are Gen4 3SGE > 315cc/min. These things don't even break into a sweat; max duty they ever reach is only 52% and they generally operate at only 10-20% Duty in Suburban driving.

    The car is only putting out ~ 150HP @ fly so doesn't need anything larger than ~ 235-250cc/min (assuming Fuel Pressure @ rail of 38 PSI )


    Yes small-port Injectors are one solution but they are 25 yr old technology - injectors have come some way since then.

    Isn't there a chance a 1MZ / 3MZ 12 hole 250cc/min injector capable of 50 micron fuel atomisation would give a smoother idle / better low duty performance due to its lower (than my current 3SGE units) flow rate?

    Yes I am running the engine on a 1=Unused, 2 = TPS VE Map. . .

    PS: Changed the title of this post as it was misleading (Upgrade > Swap )
    Last edited by GeeEss; 04-07-2016 at 09:54 PM.

  7. #7
    MR 18RG Chief Engine Builder The Witzl's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    Mate i wouldnt try to re-invent the wheel. Heaps of people use stock smallport injectors with flawless operation, including with ITB conversions.
    If it were me - id go with tried and proven solutions.

    Do you have a vacuum (collector) manifold that feeds the MAP sensor for the ECU?
    ...... butt scratcher?!


  8. #8
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Yes small-port Injectors are one solution but they are 25 yr old technology - injectors have come some way since then.
    They haven't;
    Put smallport ones in, its the stupidly obvious dirt cheap perfect fix solution.


    If you want to fuck around with different injectors from different cars and spend $400 on new fancy ones go nuts, you will be wasting your time and money.

  9. #9
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    Well I may well go that route; depends on the price of the SP injectors V 1MZ/3MZ injectors (quoted $50-60 used. . .)

    Yes I do; I have a main collector (modified OEM Fuel rail) feeding vacuum for (brakes+p/steer+ISCV+ etc) and a T3 Collector for (MAP+Dashpot)

  10. #10
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    Just got quoted SP injectors by a Sydney wrecker @ $25-30 ea. For that price I'll give them a shot. . .


    PS: Can anyone tell me how to pulse / clean the injectors using WARI software? I can see the "Test" function in ECU window but not a "Pulse" function

  11. #11
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16V 4AGE + ITB on E420d > Injector Swap

    TRDEE is a WARI fanatic, send him a PM, he will help you out.
    TrackDub - 89' AW11 1MZFE | SlushDub - 89' AW11 4AGZE
    http://www.midrear.net - My AW11 blog of DIY mechanics, grassroots motorsports and driveway shenanigans...

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