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Thread: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

  1. #1
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    I'd like to wire a knock sensor into my Series 2 Bigport.

    I haven't yet been able to confirm this (due to its PITA location) so would like to know if the 4AGE / 4AGZE block castings are basically the same; i.e. if there's a a raised boss+threaded hole at that location on the N/A Bigport 4AGE as-per Bigport 4AGZE.

    Can anyone confirm this? If so I will rip a unit off a 90-93 Tarago.

    If there is NO threaded hole then I will have to use another aftermarket unit as there's no way I'm removing the inlet & tapping one.

    I've heard a Nissan SR20 sensor will do the trick and that apart from it being 1/10 the price of a new Toyota unit - it's a better / more modern design.

    I'm asking as I'd like to wire Sensor and a couple of Aux. Loads into ECU this W/E but can't access the car to see which sensor I'll need until Saturday afternoon.

  2. #2
    anti blasphemy ! Carport Converter
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    this is 20v


    this is oil squirter 4agze


    and this is a early 4agze non oil squiter afm one.



    all have a provision for a knock.

    (last pic has broken knock sensor in it)
    i dont have a funny or cool signature.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Thanks but I'm already aware that the 4AGZE's & 20V's had Knock Sensors.

    However my car's a plain-jane non Supercharged Bigport 4AGE. < JDM 1988 AE92 FXGT >

    AFAIK the only Bigport's with Knock Sensors were the Supercharged 4AGE's; my car definitely didn't come with one.

  4. #4
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    dont know off the top of my head, tried getting under the car to see if it's there on your motor?
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - project #1 | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - project #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  5. #5
    anti blasphemy ! Carport Converter
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    dam, read the question too fast, even went to the shed an took pics.
    i dont have a funny or cool signature.

  6. #6
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Point taken TRDee but I won't be able to get near car till Saturday. I was hoping to find out by 2nite so I could if necessary order an SR20 unit off Ebay. . Might take a punt, SR20 units are only $25 ea.


    PS: Reason I'm doing this is that I recently did the preliminary HPA ECU tuning course < EFI fundamentals >. The Tuner strongly recommended having a knock-sensor as one of the Aux. outputs. < I found an old Adaptronics post online where Andy said SR20 unit is 4AGE-compatible but I would still prefer to use OEM sensor if the threaded hole's there. . . >

    PPS: The course covered a LOT of ground but some things the HPA tuner mentioned that were of value (to me at least) were;

    1. He recommended checking / calibrating Base Ignition timing by setting Fixed Advance on ECU & referencing against a timing light prior to tune.

    2. Adding extra resolution across MAP does NOT equate to a better tune - the ECU already interpolates between zones. The only areas he recommended increasing resolution around were;

    i. Idle to give finer control
    ii. Anywhere else where VE changes significantly over small RPM range.

    3. Fuel Mapping is much more critical than Ignition Mapping so the Fuel Map should have a higher resolution.

    4. Tune should include Injector Dead Time versus Battery Volts data. (all well & good but I haven't been able to find definitive DT / BV figures for Denso 290cc / 3SGE injectors anywhere. . .)

    5. Tuning can be much simplified by making a single run; analysing AFR'S then applying Correction Factor (Actual / Desired - AFRs) & making ALL required changes to Fuel Map at-each- 1000 RPM point in Rev. range.

    6. Tune Fuel table in 1000 rpm increments 1st until target AFR is reached then switch to Ignition Map & use MTB technique to optimise. Repeat t/out RPM range until WOT. He also emphasized the point that Ignition timing has no effect on AFR. . .

    7. Engine (in a road car) will spend most of its time in 1800-3500 rpm range @ light load so these are the zones you should concentrate on.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Bigport NA's had the casting but nothing threaded for knock sensor. You'll just see a blank spot where it should be. 7 ribs where all cast from the same moulds.
    This URL agrees with me, see the intake side pics of the 3 rib vs 7 rib GZE vs 7 rib NA:
    http://club4ag.com/faq_and_tech_page...ne%20Block.htm

    smallport vs bigport GZE's have the knock sensor in the same location.

    Just for the record. I'd recommend against using an SR20 knock sensor on a 4AG. From what I've seen OEM knock sensors (let's ignore aftermarket for the moment, they're even worse) tune their sensors for a specific frequency and depth of knock. I've seen oscilloscope tests of the feasibility of 20v vs bigport GZE vs smallport GZE vs 7MGTE knock sensors. All of them pick up knocks in different spots and at different thresholds. The two closest were the GZE's but Toyota revised their ECU's so the sensors themselves weren't compatible, but theoretically should work.
    All depends on how accurate you want your knock control should be.

    You can buy wideband knock sensors that work well with aftermarket ECU's, so you can have them listen and learn where it should be knocking and have the ECU adjust accordingly. Make yourself a set of det cans so you can also listen in.

    Since you don't have a place for a sensor, so you should just tune without a sensor and use det cans to understand what is a safe tune.
    Autodub - 1987 AW11 G-Limited, Dark Blue Mica 4AGZE T-Top 4EAT

  8. #8
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    As above. Get det cans (you can make your own even - there are guides on the net) and tune with them.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - project #1 | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - project #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Thanks very much for the info; I found it really informative.

    Pretty much confirmed my suspicion that my block would have the raised boss but no threaded hole.

    Re. OEM sensor I would have thought that the OEM sensor that came in ~ 6 months after my car was built with the first of the N/A small ports < P/N: 89615-12020 / 12050* > would have been closer to spec than GZE units < P/N: 89615-17010** > **unchanged from Big / Small Port blocks.

    Same* sensor was used in 90-93 Taragos but from what I've seen its next to impossible to get at w/o dropping at least one engine mount to lower engine - so much for visiting Pick-n-Payless.

    Had a quick Google for an aftermarket Wideband Knock Sensor but only seem to come up with Kits that include an Indicator Light / Warning Buzzer like the Gizzmo Knocklite unit. Can you point me to a link advertising the WB Knock Sensor alone?

    Re. Det. Cans it seems you can just take a Dick Smith Electronics Whisper 2000 Personal Sound Amplifier & modify it as-per;

    >>> http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    89615-17010 is for bigport GZE (AW11 + AE92)
    89615-12060 is for smallport GZE (AE101)

    89615-12020/50 was used on smallport 4AG's, 20v's also got 89615-12040/50. Only these ones were used in other models but usually in pairs for larger engines so I guess Toyota were happy with the resonance of them in detecting knocks. A lot of them are USDM as well which had completely different fuel and emissions laws so the tune they were running might not have demanded as much knock control.

    wideband knock sensors are also called "flat response" sensors.
    Autodub - 1987 AW11 G-Limited, Dark Blue Mica 4AGZE T-Top 4EAT

  11. #11
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    TrackDub - 89' AW11 1MZFE | SlushDub - 89' AW11 4AGZE
    http://www.midrear.net - My AW11 blog of DIY mechanics, grassroots motorsports and driveway shenanigans...

  12. #12
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Also George have you hooked the wideband up to the ecu and started autotuning the AFRs yet?
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - project #1 | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - project #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Thanks Knightrous but this is closer to what I'm after;

    >>> http://ecumasterusa.com/shop/whp-wid...ck-sensor-kit/

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    Not as yet Vito; we purchased an Apartment in early July and all my free time to date has been taken up with that - was still putting up shelving, painting doors etc last weekend. Thankfully that's out of the way and apart from picking up fish for the tank this W/E I'm now free to have another crack at the car.

    I did make a few small adjustments to the MAP we did that night @ below but after a few indeterminate results I realized that from an overall perspective I didn't really have a clue what I was doing so resolved to leave it alone until I'd educated myself more on that subject (i.e. ECU tuning).

    1. Transient Throttle > Predicted Map > inserted figures closer to those from Gauge readings (car was much less responsive on transient throttle)
    2. Idle - playing with Overall Control > Maximum Value ( dropped from 200 to 150)
    3. Injector sizing > increasing to 290 from 250
    4. Tuning Modes > Max RPM step size (dropped to 250 t/out Map which by itself made idle surge & fall)
    5. Corrections > Dead Time Corrections > I found a DT / BT Map for my Injectors online. The DT = 0.35 ms at 13.5V (which car generally sits on) versus the value of DT = 0.8 @ ALL voltages inserted by previous Tuners. This leaned out AFR to ~ 17-18 at Idle so I didn't take that any further
    Last edited by GeeEss; 08-10-2015 at 09:27 PM.

  15. #15
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knock Sensor into 7 Rib Big-port 4AGE

    unfortunately if you change things like deadtimes or rpm step sizes then you need to re-do the tune. maybe not entirely, but some sections will definitely no longer be correct as you have found out.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - project #1 | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - project #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

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