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Thread: 4AGE Stroker kits

  1. #1
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default 4AGE Stroker kits

    Looking to rebuild my Big-port 4AGE (currently running Quads) into a 5AGE.

    Looking at two suppliers; either MRP or Spool.

    Spool Kit = $2990
    MRP kit = $4600

    Seeing as I don't shit $100 bills I'm leaning towards the Spool kit.


    If anyone can offer recommendations based on 1st hand experience I'd love to hear them o/wise please save your breath. . .

  2. #2
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Looking to rebuild my Big-port 4AGE (currently running Quads) into a 5AGE.

    Looking at two suppliers; either MRP or Spool.

    Spool Kit = $2990
    MRP kit = $4600

    Seeing as I don't shit $100 bills I'm leaning towards the Spool kit.


    If anyone can offer recommendations based on 1st hand experience I'd love to hear them o/wise please save your breath. . .
    the Brian Crower kit is about $3500(US)


    How hard would it be to source an HKS stroker crank and build it yourself?? Cranks are usually around $1000.00-$1500.00 US, custom pistons $800. What am I missing???
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Attachment 18286

    Attachment 18287

    Hi there oldeskewl. . .

    Thanks for the suggestion; I've only recently gotten serious about this build and need to update my research (i.e. I didn't even know HKS still did stroker kits for 4AGE's).

    You've been on these Forums a long time so your opinion counts with me so I'd like to get your opinion on my over-all strategy.

    My strategy is to re-do what was a flawed build from the beginning in order to make the engine more tractable / usable on a day-day basis but still have the power to make the occasional track day fun.

    As the car is mainly a daily I'd like to maximise reliability / minimise complexity so am looking at an N/A layout only. Again to maximise power / efficiency I'm going to ditch the BigPort head + Quads for an OEM Blacktop Head+Injection layout that will hopefully give me OEM tractability again. I'd like more torque & ( extra expense aside) prefer a 5AGE over a 7AGE because its less of a hassle to put together which is why I am looking at a Stroker kit.

    The car is a JDM 1988 AE92 FXGT; originally came with TVIS and even though it only had about 95,000km / 55,000m on it I decided to freshen up the engine but kept the OEM pistons in order to keep costs down (seemed like a good idea at the time).

    The engine builder raced a Formula Atlantic type set up in his Caterham-type open-wheeler & suggested I go Quads so I did, and am currently running a head ported to suit Silvertop Quads. He did ask me if I wanted to uprate the pistons but I declined because I wasn't at the time aware of why higher compression was necessary to make this layout work.

    As it is the heads been shaved & running a TRD 0.8mm gasket bringing CR up to about 10.4 / 10.5:1; which AFAIK is nowhere near what is needed by the Bigport head to give the car decent low down response.

    Mod specs include; Adaptronic e420d ECU, Tomei 264 PonCams*, COP ignition, larger injectors (250cc I think. . .). TOMs Super Air Intake with Apexi Pod Filter + Custom Flange & Latches to properly seal Air box < see photos >.

    * Cams are quite conservative but there's enough vacuum for the Brakes & P/steering.

    After a couple of less than successful tuning attempts by others I found a Workshop that managed to smear some lipstick on this pig of an engine so it is currently borderline O-K. as a daily. The car has been Dynoed at 100 FWKW which all things considering isn't too bad but I need to have the A/C on in heavy traffic / when stopped to keep idle at Factory levels . It also still runs too rich; there's no way this thing would pass emissions now. . .

    I originally kept the Bigport layout as I liked the old-school feel of the 16V + wanted to retain the original engine but the engine builder has recommended I trade my nostalgia for a better head design (for N/A at least) so I'm currently looking for a Blacktop engine (or Head). As far as the block is concerned the OEM Block is an early 7-rib (no Oil Squirters). I'd like to retain my original block & machine it to take Squirters (that nostalgia thing again) but acknowledge it makes a lot more sense to just get another block so the Workshop can commence the engine build.

    Having said that I'm looking at two used blocks; a late 16V & Blacktop. Seeing as the internals are going to be junked - is there any advantage of 16V V 20V block? AFAIK the 16V has an oil return pipe at the back & the 20V doesn't and that the shape of the sump flange is slightly different.

    GS
    Last edited by GeeEss; 22-04-2015 at 12:07 PM.

  4. #4
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Only thing i can add to this is that I believe the MRP kit has some advantages in rod/stroke ratio and whatnot, and you get a nice set of custom CP pistons in the kit too

    I did not know that HKS were still offering the 5A crank for sale either! That price is pretty damn good if true. Although your post could also be taken that you are referring to used ones. If that is the case, then these cranks are essentially nonexistent in Aus.

    I remember a few years back people selling TRD cranks for 5K+ lol
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Hi Trdee. . .

    You get custom CP pistons with Spool kit too. . .

    http://www.spoolimports.com/spool-st...ge-stroker-kit

    PS: Does anyone know rod/stroke ratio of Spool kit; and what IS ideal rod/ stroke ratio for 4AGE?

    PPS: Guy at Spool said Mark Yager @ Yagerperformance has purchased his kits. If that's on the level its a good enough recommendation for me.


    GS
    Last edited by GeeEss; 22-04-2015 at 12:07 PM.

  6. #6
    Jack of all trades Automotive Encyclopaedia mattysshop's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    MRP kit definitly..

    Barry will elaborate further upon why his kit is the best.. and why are you not even considering 7A block to make it a 9AGE 1.9L.....

    if it was me this is one of those times where you spend money once so you may as well go balls deep..

  7. #7
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    I probably wouldn't recommend going for a 20v head though. You can still make decent enough power and have a drivable 16v package, parts are much easier to obtain and the cost is also significantly less... only go 20v if you want absolutely the best possible setup with no fucks given for cost.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Re. Balls in. . . I don't know about you guys but I work hard for my money and aren't about to throw it in a particular direction unless I can see the extra value in that vendor's offering. The MRP kits are $1600 more. . . I would like to understand why that's all. What is it you are getting for the extra $$$ that will make a discernible difference to your drive?

    Assuming that the bore/ stroke ratio of the MRP kit IS better optimised than that of the Spool kit; are you REALLY going to feel a discernible difference in an engine with relatively mild tune that will for the most part be daily-driven? I'm not exactly doing a Formula Atlantic build here. . . Common sense tells me the answer to that question is NO. . . .

    The $1600 saved will in any case 90% buy me a CNC'd head from MRP anyway. As I said before I don't sh__ $100 bills so want to exercise some due diligence in regards to where I spend my money.

    Re. 16V head; maybe but you need to be more specific. That's a small port head you're talking about. The Big-port head just doesn't cut it in N/A form and if I'm going to change heads anyway. . . .

    G
    Last edited by GeeEss; 22-04-2015 at 02:27 PM.

  9. #9
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    ok let me put it in simpler terms. add up what you would spend to build a 16v head and then triple it. that's the cost of doing the build with a 20v head instead. parts are much harder to get and you will pay through the nose for little bits and pieces unless you stump up the 1800-2k to buy an entire blacktop 20v to cannibalise for parts...

    if you wanted to do a 20v build it actually wouldn't be a bad idea to just buy a whole blacktop, rebuild it with high comp pistons and some poncams and leave it at that. anything beyond that and you need to start spending significant coin. you said you dont shit $100 bills, thats why i have recommended to stay with the 16v. you can make a bigport head work well enough with the right cams and compression. if not, a refreshed smallport head will cost you $300-$500 max.

    edit; sorry if this is a bit of an incoherent rambling post. im just jumping in whenever i have a free moment at work
    Last edited by trdee; 22-04-2015 at 02:44 PM.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  10. #10
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    I know not about 4a's really. But if you were after torque etc, would you not build a silver top 20v based motor? I thought the blacktops where peaky, and the smalker silvertop itbs more suited for bottom/midrange? Yes i know your going stroker so requires more air, but still. Is blacktop best for your goals. silvertop are cheap to pickup.

  11. #11
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    if you want torque then the best thing you can do is throw a TD04 on the side and be done with it
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  12. #12
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan yee View Post
    I know not about 4a's really. But if you were after torque etc, would you not build a silver top 20v based motor? I thought the blacktops where peaky, and the smalker silvertop itbs more suited for bottom/midrange? Yes i know your going stroker so requires more air, but still. Is blacktop best for your goals. silvertop are cheap to pickup.
    Its a 1600cc 4 banger, **** aint ever going to have any sort of decent torque on pump fuels.

  13. #13
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Oh my............ lots of activity.....


    First... HKS no longer makes the crank[s]... BUT if you look around they show up on occasion.


    100 kw isn't too bad... especially for stock piston. Question.... you say it is about 10.5 to one, what stock pistons did you begin with???

    big port... smallport... the single biggest problem with a 16V 4AGE is it is WAAY to low on compression. 20V is better, BUT in reality it is just a higher build level.... equally built engines perform equally... remember a Blacktop comes from the factory with 11 to 1, 264 type cams, and VERY advanced management! Build an "equal" 16V and you'll get equal power.

    As to ultimate power levels... the 16V head is still better then the 20V - haven't yet seen a stock stroke 20V make over 240hp, while 16V heads are approaching 270 on stock stroke





    To be perfectly honest... if you are cranking out 135 hp(100 kw), I'd say buy a set of proper pistons and rebuild what you have.......

    As to the rebuild set your squish at no more then 1mm, and no less than .8mm. Going under .8mm is possible, and for RACE engines (engines that come apart for inspection often) it might be highly advised......... BUT .8mm is the thinnest "street" thickness I'd run.

    This is the most comprehensive 16V Poncam build I know of that is running "stock" management (stock with a few tweaks), no ITBs, about 112kw - http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=468649 - You don't NEED ITBs to make power in a 4AGE.....


    Question on your system(concerning idle)...you are trying to use silvertop ITBs without an AFM, or is there an AFM in your intake system? As to running rich, you should be able to lean the Adaptronic e420d ECU out so it isn't as rich... no??
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  14. #14
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    You can. I've done it. It's a fucking pain in the arse to tune but it can be done, and a poor tune will make the engine feel doughy and gutless especially if it is running overly rich in the midrange. And yes higher comp pistons and a better tune ought to help the car run much better. You can go up to around 12.5:1 on petrol from what I've seen. This and a good tune should wake the engine up significantly.

    I won't get into an argument about which head is better for overall performance. Seeing as cost is the main driver here you should just stick with the head you have
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Oldskewl:
    1. OEM CR was 9.4:1. Pistons are OEM but head's been machined to up CR.
    2. My car ran an external MAP from Factory (not AFM). Adaptronic ECU I'm running has an internal MAP fed by separate T3 vacuum collector; which is piggybacked onto the main collector (modified OEM Fuel rail) that supplies vac. to other ancillaries like 20V ISCV, P/Steer, Brakes, Dashpot. . .

    Trdee:
    1. W.R.T. Pistons the guy I spoke to said that my realistic limit on 98 Octane was around 11.0:1; he generally uses Wisco.
    2 I hear what you're saying about keeping my head or just plonking a Turbo on it; truth of the matter is that money isn't an issue per-se; I'm just careful how I spend it, plus I prefer the feel of a tuned NA 4AGE. . .

    I passed by J&J Performance (recently rebranded as "Hyper Coating & Automotive") yesterday afternoon and spoke with a guy called James. He seemed to know his stuff but I take it John AKA "Sprinterman" no longer works at the business?

    James' opinion was that I should stick to the 16V Head but switch to a Small-Port. He quoted $1500 to get it properly ported/ flowed but said for the extra $3-400 the MRP head was worth considering as the flow was verified/ guaranteed.

    He said that he would retain the current 264 PonCam on the inlet but change the exhaust to a 272 to improve breathing.

    He acknowledged my points about Rod/Stroke ratio w.r.t. Spool V MRP stroker kit but his preference was the BC kit (which is same/ more $$$ landed than MRP kit).

    He said that (with the BC Stroker kit) an output of 130+KW at the wheels was quite attainable. . .


    Bearing all this in mind I'm not that keen on dropping those kind of $$$ on a stroker kit; $3K I can live with but $5K??? You're looking down the barrel of a $10K build. . .

    At the end of the day what I want is a much more responsive engine & one with enough power (170+hp @ Fly ) to be able to have a bit of fun at the odd Track Day BUT one that is ultimately OEM streetable in that;

    1. It MUST burn much cleaner* than it does now. It just runs too rich as it stands and that's after 3 Dyno tunes - I've pissed away $2K on that alone and would hate to put the thing back together & then realise I should have gone with the 20V head for cleaner breathing.

    2. I don't have to turn on A/C in order to bring idle down to a reasonable level at Traffic lights.

    3. The Rostra cruise control I installed will actually work consistently. Rostra specs claim control from 50kmh/ 30mph+ but it won't play ball below 80kmh / 50mph, even at higher revs / 4th gear.

    * It is of course quite possible (probable?) that due to the too-low CR; the Tuner cannot lean out the fuel delivery any further without totally killing the low / mid range response; in which case higher compression would certainly allow more latitude in that area. . .


    In regards to Trdee's statement that the Bigport can be made to work OK with the right cams & compression.

    Would I be right in saying that;

    1. You cannot run as long a duration cam with the Bigport head for a given low/mid range response?
    2. Retaining the bigport head would make more sense with a Stroker due to the increased airflow?



    PS: My mechanic agrees that for a road 16V it would have been better if I'd retained OEM induction but switching back isn't really an option as;

    1. I sold all the OEM TVIS induction hardware on Ebay. . .
    2. The ECU has been mapped for ITBs and I can't be arsed reverting.



    GS
    Last edited by GeeEss; 24-04-2015 at 12:00 PM.

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