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Thread: 4AGE Stroker kits

  1. #16
    Forum Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Why not just pour your $$$ into a decent 7a build? the extra CC's will give you the low end you want, and with the right mods it will still sing at the top end
    Get a 7a block/crank from a wreaker (mine cost me $70),machine it for oil squirters if you want, stick your 16v head on top and grab some rods and pistons from MRP. Barry also stocks the 7a conversion parts like the recut crank sprocket and timing belt kits to make the swap super easy. He's a pretty good guy to deal with and will work with you to get the result you want, not just sell you things you don't know you don't need.

    I picked up a 9A stroker kit from Barry a yr or so back. While I have yet to put it together, I am impressed with the quality and the attention to detail that he's put into the design. When I was looking at stroker kits I found a lot of comment on the web (I know, its not reliable) about Spool parts sometime being out of spec and requiring further machining to work.. but this could just be smack talk and things may have changed since then.

    just my 2c..

  2. #17
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    What about the idea of a simplified 4AGZE?

    Use the 4AGZE small port bottom end (8.9:1 comp)
    TRD head gasket to step the compression into the 9:1's
    SC12 or SC14 with suitable crank pulley
    NA Intake manifold with NA throttle body (run a post supercharger TB setup and a blow off valve)
    Big front mount A2A cooler.

    Higher compression will allow you to run the SC12/14 in it's comfort zone (Less than 1.8PR or 10psi), going to the NA intake allows you to toss away a huge amount of the complexity that is the stock 4AGZE system and the a big front mount intercooler allows decent intercooling without going to a complicated w2a. Cost would be a hell of a lot cheaper as most of the part are factory bits (you may already have most of them...) and saves dicking around with a stroker kit, pistons and camshafts. It will be responsive and since it's not a ridiculously over boosted setup, it should be reliable. IIRC, Adsport did a similar setup in his AW11 with an SC14 (throttle post supercharger) and put down ~140RWKW.

    If you want bigger power and a little more complexity, go for a Eaton M62 supercharger. There are a few MX5's running the M62 with 150 - 165RWKW figures which is a decent amount of grunt for a 1.6L that isn't turbo and has a lot of response.
    TrackDub - 89' AW11 1MZFE | SlushDub - 89' AW11 4AGZE
    http://www.midrear.net - My AW11 blog of DIY mechanics, grassroots motorsports and driveway shenanigans...

  3. #18
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Thanks but I want to keep the car N/A.

    Re. Stolic: I've been looking at some old notes (esp. a conversation I had with Mark Yager / Yager Performance 3-4 years ago) and I'm reconsidering my aversion to the 7AGE; which was mainly based on the inherently weaker 6-bolt flywheel attachment.

    Will check out the MRP kit & maybe email Barry. . .

  4. #19
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    My answers below:

    Please bear in mind everyone has their own opinion to how to build/tune engines so you will hear differing accounts from everybody. It's up to you to make the final decision though

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Oldskewl:
    1. OEM CR was 9.4:1. Pistons are OEM but head's been machined to up CR.
    2. My car ran an external MAP from Factory (not AFM). Adaptronic ECU I'm running has an internal MAP fed by separate T3 vacuum collector; which is piggybacked onto the main collector (modified OEM Fuel rail) that supplies vac. to other ancillaries like 20V ISCV, P/Steer, Brakes, Dashpot. . .

    Trdee:
    1. W.R.T. Pistons the guy I spoke to said that my realistic limit on 98 Octane was around 11.0:1; he generally uses Wisco.
    The guy you spoke to is probably not up to speed with advancements in technology over the last decade or so then.... I have two close friends who are both running 12 or 12.5:1 on engines which are regularly street driven on 98 octane. No problems

    2 I hear what you're saying about keeping my head or just plonking a Turbo on it; truth of the matter is that money isn't an issue per-se; I'm just careful how I spend it, plus I prefer the feel of a tuned NA 4AGE. . .
    What I mean to say is - when you mention not wanting to piss hunned dollar bills away for pointless gains, this is what will happen if you change a head. Sure it will make a small difference, but in my opinion it is not worth the expense compared to spending that coin on some high comp pistons and fat cams instead

    I passed by J&J Performance (recently rebranded as "Hyper Coating & Automotive") yesterday afternoon and spoke with a guy called James. He seemed to know his stuff but I take it John AKA "Sprinterman" no longer works at the business?
    Xero may know more about this as he has had work done there before, I'll ask him to jump in to this thread

    James' opinion was that I should stick to the 16V Head but switch to a Small-Port. He quoted $1500 to get it properly ported/ flowed but said for the extra $3-400 the MRP head was worth considering as the flow was verified/ guaranteed.
    Again, depends on whether you think the gains are worth the 2k outlay (it will realistically be that much when you factor in miscellaneous bits to swap heads)

    He said that he would retain the current 264 PonCam on the inlet but change the exhaust to a 272 to improve breathing.
    Depends on your goals but for an angry-ish street motor I would go to 272s all round

    He acknowledged my points about Rod/Stroke ratio w.r.t. Spool V MRP stroker kit but his preference was the BC kit (which is same/ more $$$ landed than MRP kit).

    He said that (with the BC Stroker kit) an output of 130+KW at the wheels was quite attainable. . .
    Xero is making over 130rwkw at 9000rpm with a stock crank, stock (prepped) rods, stock oil pump, 12.5:1 comp, ported smallport head and big cams (around 300deg). It is surprisingly docile and very easy to drive on the street. If I was building a stroker I would want to be making 150+ for the effort to be worthwhile

    Bearing all this in mind I'm not that keen on dropping those kind of $$$ on a stroker kit; $3K I can live with but $5K??? You're looking down the barrel of a $10K build. . .

    At the end of the day what I want is a much more responsive engine & one with enough power (170+hp @ Fly ) to be able to have a bit of fun at the odd Track Day BUT one that is ultimately OEM streetable in that;
    As seen above, you dont need to go to the stroker to make this kind of power. The stroker will do it with a fatter powerband and without having to rev as hard of course, but whether that power band is worth the extra thousands of dollars to build a stroker is up to you

    1. It MUST burn much cleaner* than it does now. It just runs too rich as it stands and that's after 3 Dyno tunes - I've pissed away $2K on that alone and would hate to put the thing back together & then realise I should have gone with the 20V head for cleaner breathing.
    Who are you getting to tune it? One of my mates has similar power to you out of his bigport and even with a microtech as powerful as an abacus it still runs bloody well. Sounds like your tuner doesnt know what he is doing or you have some other issue with your setup

    2. I don't have to turn on A/C in order to bring idle down to a reasonable level at Traffic lights.
    Again, proper idle equipment (ISCV etc) and someone who knows how to tune an engine properly should make this a non-issue

    3. The Rostra cruise control I installed will actually work consistently. Rostra specs claim control from 50kmh/ 30mph+ but it won't play ball below 80kmh / 50mph, even at higher revs / 4th gear.

    * It is of course quite possible (probable?) that due to the too-low CR; the Tuner cannot lean out the fuel delivery any further without totally killing the low / mid range response; in which case higher compression would certainly allow more latitude in that area. . .
    Unlikely, as above I think your tuner is struggling to get a decent tune done for whatever reason. The adaptronic has enough tuning resolution and a good accel pump map so this should be a non-issue. Do you have a wideband O2 sensor hooked up in the car? You are in NSW so if you like I would be more than happy to come around one day and take a look at the tune, see if there is anything immediately wrong with it etc.


    In regards to Trdee's statement that the Bigport can be made to work OK with the right cams & compression.

    Would I be right in saying that;

    1. You cannot run as long a duration cam with the Bigport head for a given low/mid range response?
    I can't say for sure but in my mind that is theoretically correct. Whether it is significant in real life is a different question though

    2. Retaining the bigport head would make more sense with a Stroker due to the increased airflow?
    On face value yes (bigger ports etc) but then OST has previously shown that the limiting factor in a stock bigport head is the valve size anyway, and you can always port a smallport..


    PS: My mechanic agrees that for a road 16V it would have been better if I'd retained OEM induction but switching back isn't really an option as;

    1. I sold all the OEM TVIS induction hardware on Ebay. . .
    2. The ECU has been mapped for ITBs and I can't be arsed reverting.



    GS
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - project #1 | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - project #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  5. #20
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Thanks for the info and yes; I would definitely be interested in your checking the tune of the car. I live in Southern Sydney.

    Please let me know when you can spare the time (this W/E perhaps) o/wise happy to come your way. . .

    Re 02 Sensor: OEM was originally 1-wire but I had a new 3-wire Denso (OEM AE111) unit wired in when I installed 20V Headers.

    * Having said that the car was initially over-fuelling something terrible; not sure what effect this has had on the O2 sensor but @ ISCV; latest tuner didn't flag any problems with it.

    Re. ISCV: I'm running an OEM AE111 20V unit. Latest tuner didn't raise an issue with it but I remember 1st tuner claiming there wasn't enough adjustment (+/- 750 RPM) compared with expected (+/- 1000 RPM). I originally bought the ISCV 2nd hand on Ebay. Having said that I checked, dismantled & thoroughly cleaned the unit before installing it.

    Re. ". . . .spending that coin on some high comp pistons and fat cams instead". . .

    Yeah, pretty much agree. I've known the bottom end needed re-doing all along; just couldn't (and still can't) make my mind up about the head. I don't want to do this engine a 3rd time (aside from possibly playing with different cams).

    Out of interest; what's the rationale / trade-off behind longer duration exhaust cams V same all round? Better mid-range V less top-end?



    GS
    Last edited by GeeEss; 24-04-2015 at 03:44 PM.

  6. #21
    loves hi RPMS Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy View Post
    the Brian Crower kit is about $3500(US)


    How hard would it be to source an HKS stroker crank and build it yourself?? Cranks are usually around $1000.00-$1500.00 US, custom pistons $800. What am I missing???
    HKS cranks are now hard to find and would cost just as much, if not more, than the BC or SPOOL cranks. and its JUST A CRANK, no rods or pistons or anything else. it also doesnt take into account the condition of the crank, which could be fucked costing more money.
    also the BC and SPOOL cranks are copies of the 5AG crank.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Attachment 18286

    Attachment 18287

    Hi there oldeskewl. . .

    Thanks for the suggestion; I've only recently gotten serious about this build and need to update my research (i.e. I didn't even know HKS still did stroker kits for 4AGE's).

    You've been on these Forums a long time so your opinion counts with me so I'd like to get your opinion on my over-all strategy.

    My strategy is to re-do what was a flawed build from the beginning in order to make the engine more tractable / usable on a day-day basis but still have the power to make the occasional track day fun.

    As the car is mainly a daily I'd like to maximise reliability / minimise complexity so am looking at an N/A layout only. Again to maximise power / efficiency I'm going to ditch the BigPort head + Quads for an OEM Blacktop Head+Injection layout that will hopefully give me OEM tractability again. I'd like more torque & ( extra expense aside) prefer a 5AGE over a 7AGE because its less of a hassle to put together which is why I am looking at a Stroker kit.

    The car is a JDM 1988 AE92 FXGT; originally came with TVIS and even though it only had about 95,000km / 55,000m on it I decided to freshen up the engine but kept the OEM pistons in order to keep costs down (seemed like a good idea at the time).
    ok, your kinda a bit all over the place here, so do you want a powerful engine or just a street engine that has ENOUGH power?
    because you can have you cake and eat it too in this instance which ill get to shortly.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    The engine builder raced a Formula Atlantic type set up in his Caterham-type open-wheeler & suggested I go Quads so I did, and am currently running a head ported to suit Silvertop Quads. He did ask me if I wanted to uprate the pistons but I declined because I wasn't at the time aware of why higher compression was necessary to make this layout work.
    who is your engine builder?
    the basics of any N/A engine is: compression, revs, fuel and air. thats it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    As it is the heads been shaved & running a TRD 0.8mm gasket bringing CR up to about 10.4 / 10.5:1; which AFAIK is nowhere near what is needed by the Bigport head to give the car decent low down response.

    Mod specs include; Adaptronic e420d ECU, Tomei 264 PonCams*, COP ignition, larger injectors (250cc I think. . .). TOMs Super Air Intake with Apexi Pod Filter + Custom Flange & Latches to properly seal Air box < see photos >.

    * Cams are quite conservative but there's enough vacuum for the Brakes & P/steering.
    just so we're clear you have the late model bigport with the black writing on the top and 7 rib bottom end. the JDM factory CR is 9.8:1 the gasket increases your CR by 4/5ths of fuckall and at a guess the head and block have been shaved by at least 0.5mm to get that increase (more than likely its closer to 1mm). your cams are fine (poncams are 264 deg and 8.3mm lift and are refered to 'drop in cams') but the main point you are wanting is driveability but they can be made to work a bit harder. do you have any adjustable cam gears installed.
    injectors would be either 197cc or 235cc or 365cc (GZE injectors).
    the factory airbox and intake are doing you no favours for power production (ask me how i know...) so that will need to be fucked off.
    no mention of any extractors or exhaust..?
    lightweight flywheel?
    gearing?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    After a couple of less than successful tuning attempts by others I found a Workshop that managed to smear some lipstick on this pig of an engine so it is currently borderline O-K. as a daily. The car has been Dynoed at 100 FWKW which all things considering isn't too bad but I need to have the A/C on in heavy traffic / when stopped to keep idle at Factory levels . It also still runs too rich; there's no way this thing would pass emissions now. . .
    there are a number of reasons why you are running rich, which would need to be eliminated one by one. it is not purely ECU or compression related. has your cooling system been upgraded, do you have a strong vac signal, is the TPS correctly calibrated, is the ECU correctly reading the TPS (ask me how i know ALL ABOUT this one), do you have any vacuum leaks, do you have an air temp sensor, air speed sensor, o2 sensor or a knock sensor?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    I originally kept the Bigport layout as I liked the old-school feel of the 16V + wanted to retain the original engine but the engine builder has recommended I trade my nostalgia for a better head design (for N/A at least) so I'm currently looking for a Blacktop engine (or Head). As far as the block is concerned the OEM Block is an early 7-rib (no Oil Squirters). I'd like to retain my original block & machine it to take Squirters (that nostalgia thing again) but acknowledge it makes a lot more sense to just get another block so the Workshop can commence the engine build.
    for what you want out of the car your bogport will be MORE THAN ENOUGH and the expense of working or building a 20v, especially with a stroker crank, will triple your costs. a cleaned up and lightly ported bogport (valves opened up a tiny bit, exhaust ports evened out, cleaning up of the casting dags and a little bit of smoothing on the ports is all you will need) will make the power you want and do it cleanly enough. the above on your 16v head shouldnt cost more than $5-600 at any reputable engine shop (done it twice, cost about the same each time. 3rd time i went full retard so it cost a lot more).

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Having said that I'm looking at two used blocks; a late 16V & Blacktop. Seeing as the internals are going to be junked - is there any advantage of 16V V 20V block? AFAIK the 16V has an oil return pipe at the back & the 20V doesn't and that the shape of the sump flange is slightly different.

    GS
    the block you have and the 20v blocks are all the same. however, you have the early 40mm crank though, which is fine just means you need to specify that you have 18mm wrist pins instead of the later models 20mm. your block even has provision for the oil squirters but just doesnt have them fitted if the engines apart its a 10min job for the engine shop.
    oil return pipe is ONLY APPLICABLE TO SMALLPORT HEADS. bigport and 20v DO NOT have provisions for the oil return despite it being available on the block. 20v heads have a different oil gallery design which negated this requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    Only thing i can add to this is that I believe the MRP kit has some advantages in rod/stroke ratio and whatnot, and you get a nice set of custom CP pistons in the kit too

    I did not know that HKS were still offering the 5A crank for sale either! That price is pretty damn good if true. Although your post could also be taken that you are referring to used ones. If that is the case, then these cranks are essentially nonexistent in Aus.

    I remember a few years back people selling TRD cranks for 5K+ lol
    HKS havent made a 5ag crank for like 25 years, you know this... its like the mythical AW11 turbo kit.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Hi Trdee. . .

    You get custom CP pistons with Spool kit too. . .

    http://www.spoolimports.com/spool-st...ge-stroker-kit

    PS: Does anyone know rod/stroke ratio of Spool kit; and what IS ideal rod/ stroke ratio for 4AGE?

    PPS: Guy at Spool said Mark Yager @ Yagerperformance has purchased his kits. If that's on the level its a good enough recommendation for me.


    GS
    SPOOL crank is the same as the BC crank which are a copy of the HKS 5ag crank. they both give the same 1700cc capacity if you just use the crank, however BC also suggests you go for an 83mm piston which gives you ~1780ccs or 1.8ltr. im not a fan of the 83mm piston route as it does weaken the block and can crack at the water galleries destroying a very nice engine.

    mark yager knows how to screw engine together, and also has used also sorts of parts both cheap and name brand over the years. he is an engine builder, take it with a grain of salt.

    SPOOL kit rod/stroke ratio is 1.39? i think? (feel free to correct me). ideal rod/stroke ratio is 1.60+? im 100% sure bazda will stick his head in and correct me...


    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Re. Balls in. . . I don't know about you guys but I work hard for my money and aren't about to throw it in a particular direction unless I can see the extra value in that vendor's offering. The MRP kits are $1600 more. . . I would like to understand why that's all. What is it you are getting for the extra $$$ that will make a discernible difference to your drive?

    Assuming that the bore/ stroke ratio of the MRP kit IS better optimised than that of the Spool kit; are you REALLY going to feel a discernible difference in an engine with relatively mild tune that will for the most part be daily-driven? I'm not exactly doing a Formula Atlantic build here. . . Common sense tells me the answer to that question is NO. . . .

    The $1600 saved will in any case 90% buy me a CNC'd head from MRP anyway. As I said before I don't sh__ $100 bills so want to exercise some due diligence in regards to where I spend my money.

    Re. 16V head; maybe but you need to be more specific. That's a small port head you're talking about. The Big-port head just doesn't cut it in N/A form and if I'm going to change heads anyway. . . .

    G
    ok, so why do you need a stroker crank at this stage? i dont think this has really been addressed.
    the MRP kit gives you all the toys you will ever need in a 7A block and capacity of 1900cc, where as the SPOOL and BC cranks will only give 1700cc (unless of course you take the BC route and go with an 83mm piston for 1800cc). you are also aware of the block machining to fit said crank (machining of journals and base of bores) for clearencing of the rods and crank throw?
    the MRP will require the use of a 7A block and some parts from that block but a 7a engine is about $500 from pretty much any jap wrecker (seriously, they were in 11ty corollas...) but it gives you a massive capacity increase to really work that bigport head if you went this route. many people are using these cranks and Bazda has pushed his to the limits time and time again.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy View Post
    Oh my............ lots of activity.....


    First... HKS no longer makes the crank[s]... BUT if you look around they show up on occasion.


    100 kw isn't too bad... especially for stock piston. Question.... you say it is about 10.5 to one, what stock pistons did you begin with???
    he said stock pistons were used, and has compression ratio of 9.4:1 (except its JDM and is 9.8:1)

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy View Post

    To be perfectly honest... if you are cranking out 135 hp(100 kw), I'd say buy a set of proper pistons and rebuild what you have.......

    As to the rebuild set your squish at no more then 1mm, and no less than .8mm. Going under .8mm is possible, and for RACE engines (engines that come apart for inspection often) it might be highly advised......... BUT .8mm is the thinnest "street" thickness I'd run.
    the amount of compression and RPMs this engine will likely see make this whole idea a non-issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldeskewltoy View Post
    This is the most comprehensive 16V Poncam build I know of that is running "stock" management (stock with a few tweaks), no ITBs, about 112kw - http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=468649 - You don't NEED ITBs to make power in a 4AGE.....


    Question on your system(concerning idle)...you are trying to use silvertop ITBs without an AFM, or is there an AFM in your intake system? As to running rich, you should be able to lean the Adaptronic e420d ECU out so it isn't as rich... no??
    and Schmitt and his TA22 on here make about the same power with a bigport, 11:1 compression, similar cams, mild port work, quads and a microguess ECU turning it to 8300rpm. and stock 20v's can throw out 130hp at the back tyres. whats your point here?
    there still is a number of other variables which are unknown at this point as to why the engine doesnt make any more power or is running rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    You can. I've done it. It's a fucking pain in the arse to tune but it can be done, and a poor tune will make the engine feel doughy and gutless especially if it is running overly rich in the midrange. And yes higher comp pistons and a better tune ought to help the car run much better. You can go up to around 12.5:1 on petrol from what I've seen. This and a good tune should wake the engine up significantly.

    I won't get into an argument about which head is better for overall performance. Seeing as cost is the main driver here you should just stick with the head you have
    yep, your 20v ran rich as and drove like a pig due to VVT, timing, and fuel. my angry 16v ran rich as and drove ok (the plume of fuel smoke out the back wasnt helping)
    and i know you were talking about my engine, for reference GS and OST i run 12.5:1 comp ratio on 98 octane. still get REASONABLE fuel economy as well... makes 130rwkw (180rwhp) at 9500rpm too. and i have factory thickness MLS gasket OST, in case you were wondering.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Oldskewl:
    1. OEM CR was 9.4:1. Pistons are OEM but head's been machined to up CR.
    2. My car ran an external MAP from Factory (not AFM). Adaptronic ECU I'm running has an internal MAP fed by separate T3 vacuum collector; which is piggybacked onto the main collector (modified OEM Fuel rail) that supplies vac. to other ancillaries like 20V ISCV, P/Steer, Brakes, Dashpot. . .
    you engine is JDM, it should be closer, if not bang on, 10:1 comp.
    whats been modified on the fuel rail?
    with the quads you get a reduced vac output and the vac block itself really only can handle a couple of things running off of it. the MAP sensor should be able to get a signal directly from the factory 20v airbox because running it off the vac block wont give it the correct readings. so either piss it off (run ECU as reading TPS only) or plug it in somewhere else where it is getting a correct signal and not from the vac block.
    not sure what the dashpot is... unless you mean charcoal canister? this only needs the SMALLEST of vac signals to work effectively. its a passive item.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Trdee:
    1. W.R.T. Pistons the guy I spoke to said that my realistic limit on 98 Octane was around 11.0:1; he generally uses Wisco.
    2 I hear what you're saying about keeping my head or just plonking a Turbo on it; truth of the matter is that money isn't an issue per-se; I'm just careful how I spend it, plus I prefer the feel of a tuned NA 4AGE. . .
    horseshit. 13:1 is the limit for 98 octane. even then is bordering on E85 requirement. its all in the tune and the tuner.
    i have wiseco 12:1 pistons in my engine, have had them in there for 8 years now (i didnt realise its been this long!) and driven the car at least 50k kms EVERYWHERE. road, racetrack, to the shops, on the freeway, in peak hour traffic, where ever i need to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    I passed by J&J Performance (recently rebranded as "Hyper Coating & Automotive") yesterday afternoon and spoke with a guy called James. He seemed to know his stuff but I take it John AKA "Sprinterman" no longer works at the business?

    James' opinion was that I should stick to the 16V Head but switch to a Small-Port. He quoted $1500 to get it properly ported/ flowed but said for the extra $3-400 the MRP head was worth considering as the flow was verified/ guaranteed.

    He said that he would retain the current 264 PonCam on the inlet but change the exhaust to a 272 to improve breathing.

    He acknowledged my points about Rod/Stroke ratio w.r.t. Spool V MRP stroker kit but his preference was the BC kit (which is same/ more $$$ landed than MRP kit).

    He said that (with the BC Stroker kit) an output of 130+KW at the wheels was quite attainable. . .
    sprinterman built my engine 8 years ago and its never missed a beat. ive also had my head work done by LW parry (known for building angry clubman 4a/7as) and its never had a mechanical issue. i havent seen or spoken to john in years. not really sure what he is doing now... he used to run the shop with james but they split due to reasons and james still runs it. james knows what he is talking about (was a toyota tech for years) and yes you should stick with the 16v head, but not necessarily go for the smallport head as it will not really be adding anything you require. the valves and combustion chamber are EXACTLY the same between smallport and bigport. the major difference is the intake ports being much larger for the bigport (hence the name).
    you wont need a 272 cam, it will just increase your RPM range and thats mostly about it. if you added a set of adjustable gears you can adjust the power band a fair way with those cams so you can have a strong mid range and top out about 8500rpm should you so desire.
    i can prove a stroker crank will not be required for 130rwkw. i wouldnt entertain the idea unless you absolutely have to.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Bearing all this in mind I'm not that keen on dropping those kind of $$$ on a stroker kit; $3K I can live with but $5K??? You're looking down the barrel of a $10K build. . .

    At the end of the day what I want is a much more responsive engine & one with enough power (170+hp @ Fly ) to be able to have a bit of fun at the odd Track Day BUT one that is ultimately OEM streetable in that;

    1. It MUST burn much cleaner* than it does now. It just runs too rich as it stands and that's after 3 Dyno tunes - I've pissed away $2K on that alone and would hate to put the thing back together & then realise I should have gone with the 20V head for cleaner breathing.

    2. I don't have to turn on A/C in order to bring idle down to a reasonable level at Traffic lights.

    3. The Rostra cruise control I installed will actually work consistently. Rostra specs claim control from 50kmh/ 30mph+ but it won't play ball below 80kmh / 50mph, even at higher revs / 4th gear.

    * It is of course quite possible (probable?) that due to the too-low CR; the Tuner cannot lean out the fuel delivery any further without totally killing the low / mid range response; in which case higher compression would certainly allow more latitude in that area. . .


    In regards to Trdee's statement that the Bigport can be made to work OK with the right cams & compression.
    will outline options below on what you can do with you $$$. 12345
    N/A for life...

  7. #22
    loves hi RPMS Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Would I be right in saying that;

    1. You cannot run as long a duration cam with the Bigport head for a given low/mid range response?
    2. Retaining the bigport head would make more sense with a Stroker due to the increased airflow?



    PS: My mechanic agrees that for a road 16V it would have been better if I'd retained OEM induction but switching back isn't really an option as;

    1. I sold all the OEM TVIS induction hardware on Ebay. . .
    2. The ECU has been mapped for ITBs and I can't be arsed reverting.

    GS
    you can run whatever duration cam you want, but will need compression to back it up. i have 304/296 deg cams with 11mm lift, but i also have 12.5:1 compression ratio too. but you wont need a bigger cam for your power goals.
    again depending on the cam you run and how much compression you run will depend on your low/mid range response. prior to fitting the 300deg cams i had the stock smallport cams at 236 duration (fucking TINY!) and had a metric shit ton of low end and mid range with the high compression, but absolutely NOTHING above 6500rpm. cams just ran out of puff and couldnt supply the engine the air it needed. cut to beginning of the year and after a few tidy up items on the engine and a retune it makes 130rwkw. mid range is fantastic and it rips along like scalded cat all the way to 9500rpm, below 2000rpm it has lost some response but in any gear im rarely below that RPM driving around (60kmh is 2800rpm in 4th gear due to 4.7 rear ratio).
    so your cam will be fine you wont lose any noticeable low end or mid range kick and will give you the top rush you see to desire, and maybe your cam just needs to be dialed in and maybe would benefit from a small increase to 11:1 comp.
    smallport or bigport wont make a difference to airflow and combustion chamber burn. not a single difference. air flow wont be entering the engine any slower or faster by having larger ports and a longer stroke as the factory valves will only allow so much air in at once (even with your cams, wont increase the speed just allows more in). you will need the rest of the engine working hard (cam duration, valve lift, cam lobe separation, compression, intake port flow, exhaust port flow, exhaust system, intake etc etc) before air speed comes into it.
    ignore mechanic, keep the quads.


    Right options time!
    1. take big port head off, clean up with mild port job, fit some aftermarket pistons on factory rods to increase compression to ~11:1 rev to to ~8000rpm while keeping existing quads.
    get decent extractors (any name brand off the shelf will be fine) fuck off the intake you have and get a set T3 or samQ trumpets along with individual or DCOE filters. i recommend pipercross filters (have a pair of DCOE filters on mine when i decide to run them, which is never).
    should run you to about $2500 including pistons, head work and some ARP bolts for good measure.

    2. buy complete smallport engine, skim head and block to 1mm, mild port job, fit cams and quads to smallport engine and enjoy as is. because smallport already has higher compression from factory (10.4:1) you wont need new pistons or anything, has stronger rods and larger crank and will happily turn to 8500rpm with almost not bottom end work.
    should cost about $2500 again for purchase of a complete engine, head work and engine being fitted (im assuming you dont do the work on the car yourself)

    3. buy 20v bottom end, bolt 16v head on as is and enjoy your 11.5-12:1 compression ratio straight off the bat. 16v is non interference engine and valves WILL NOT hit the 20v pistons even with your cams (you'd need at least 9.5mm or bigger lift to become an interference engine). i watched james and john do this with a smallport corolla james had at the time. you should ask him about it.
    and if the heads off may as well get it worked on anyway to work with the compression increase.
    silvertop bottom end is the same as smallport and the factory redline is 8000rpm, blacktop has lighter rods but is a better design and just as strong as smallport/silvertop with the factory redline at 8300rpm. so feel free to rev it hard.
    if it costs more than $1500 all up you got dudded somewhere along the way.

    4. fit a complete blacktop 20v engine with 6sp. seriously great engine straight up, will make as much if not slightly more power than the bogport now and do it everywhere through the rev range. downside is it is a used engine, so can be risks with getting a dud (rare, but it happens). engine will work with the adaptronic and runs well with it and can also control the VVT for better spread of power. hell the 6sp itself is worth its weight it gold for waking up an ordinary 4ag.
    engine + gearbag ranges from $1800 - $2800, but it wont require pulling apart (unless to check it) and will just need a set of extractors to suit the 20v engine. as the blocks are the same it uses the same engine mounts as the 16v so it will bolt right in.

    5. full retard.
    smallport or blacktop 20v engine, balanced factory crank, aftermarket rods, forged hi-comp pistons, big cams, high compression, oversized valves, all of the head work, custom extractors, match ported quads, 400+ cc injectors, oil pump and/or galleries mods, 6sp, and short diff gears.
    not much change from $12k, but will make 125+wkw at nearly 10000rpm.

    5.1 as above but using the MRP stroker crank and dry sump.
    wont see change out of 20k, but will make like 170wkw at 11ty million RPM.
    N/A for life...

  8. #23
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Quote Originally Posted by GeeEss View Post
    Thanks for the info and yes; I would definitely be interested in your checking the tune of the car. I live in Southern Sydney.

    Please let me know when you can spare the time (this W/E perhaps) o/wise happy to come your way. . .

    Re 02 Sensor: OEM was originally 1-wire but I had a new 3-wire Denso (OEM AE111) unit wired in when I installed 20V Headers.

    * Having said that the car was initially over-fuelling something terrible; not sure what effect this has had on the O2 sensor but @ ISCV; latest tuner didn't flag any problems with it.

    Re. ISCV: I'm running an OEM AE111 20V unit. Latest tuner didn't raise an issue with it but I remember 1st tuner claiming there wasn't enough adjustment (+/- 750 RPM) compared with expected (+/- 1000 RPM). I originally bought the ISCV 2nd hand on Ebay. Having said that I checked, dismantled & thoroughly cleaned the unit before installing it.

    Re. ". . . .spending that coin on some high comp pistons and fat cams instead". . .

    Yeah, pretty much agree. I've known the bottom end needed re-doing all along; just couldn't (and still can't) make my mind up about the head. I don't want to do this engine a 3rd time (aside from possibly playing with different cams).

    Out of interest; what's the rationale / trade-off behind longer duration exhaust cams V same all round? Better mid-range V less top-end?



    GS
    ISCV really isnt doing anything to help you, in this instance because you are using JUST the throttles themselves and not the attached factory manifold with vac circuits and what not, its probably not doing shit and could be a source of a vacuum leak.
    to get decent idle you kinda have to go old school and balance the throttles BEFORE tuning and anything else. if you dont do that you will be chasing issues the whole time. once they are balanced you can adjust via the MASTER idle control on the throttles themselves.

    o2 sensor is handy, but have you or are you able to fit a wideband in its place? (says the guy who doesnt have either...)
    N/A for life...

  9. #24
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Option number 6:
    Put the 4AGE in the bin and put something else in?

    3SGE beams conversion would go well in a AE86, nice 6 speed gearbag on them and they punch out 130rwkw dead stock with a set of pipes and a pod filter.
    Dont think they are worth a whole lot to buy, conversion looks no harder than any other 4 banger needing some sump work.
    All the 20v's for sale are fucked, yet to see one that's not sludgetastic


    Stroker kits make zero sense to me, $3000 for 200cc is shitty value for money especially when the factory rods/crank are perfectly fine.
    Last edited by dnegative; 24-04-2015 at 07:17 PM.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    It's an AE92 nick, beams no worky. (Well a FWD one will but it's going to be a turd sandwich to fit)
    N/A for life...

  11. #26
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    OK. . . Still trying to get my head around that let alone formulate a response but I’ll give it a go anyway

    Ok, you’re kinda a bit all over the place here, so do you want a powerful engine or just a street engine that has ENOUGH power because you can have you cake and eat it too in this instance which I’ll get to shortly.

    Point taken: I want as much as $5000 (spent wisely); will get me. . .

    The Shop that built the engine was LW Parry’s (now closed down as I was just informed).
    Stock bottom end (only had 92K on it). Bored & honed etc. As mentioned earlier I was asked if I wanted HC pistons but I said no because I didn’t know any better and wanted a budget build. The pots were only another $1K which I could have / would have - done IF it had been made clear to me the car would be a dog without them.

    They also balanced my S/T Quads & match ported the inlet manifold (bought from T3 in the States) to the inlets.

    Just so we're clear you have the late model Bigport with the black writing on the top and 7 rib bottom end. The JDM factory CR is 9.8:1 the gasket increases your CR by 4/5ths of fuckall and at a guess the head and block have been shaved by at least 0.5mm to get that increase (more than likely its closer to 1mm). Your cams are fine (Poncams are 264 deg and 8.3mm lift and are referred to 'drop in cams') but the main point you are wanting is driveability but they can be made to work a bit harder. Do you have any adjustable cam gears installed?
    Injectors would be either 197cc or 235cc or 365cc (GZE injectors).
    The factory airbox and intake are doing you no favours for power production (ask me how I know...) so that will need to be fucked off.
    No mention of any extractors or exhaust..?
    Lightweight flywheel?
    Gearing?


    My car is as you said a late 7-rib Bigport / early build AE92 (7/1988). The block has no oil squirters – they came in around 5/1989. Assumed 9.4:1 CR bcz that’s what the BillZilla guide said. . .?
    Yes the head was shaved by about 20 thou = 0.5mm.
    I have T3 cam gears installed & they’ve been dialled in (forget the specs).
    AFAIK I’m running 235cc (pink) Denso injectors.
    Inlet & exhaust specs have been mentioned; see my comments at beginning of thread + Engine Bay photos
    Recapping;
    Intake: Replica TOMs Super Air (dual intake) airbox with Apexi cone filter. Box is sealed with Custom Annular Flange. This piece of kit made a fair bit of difference.
    Exhausts FGK 4-2-1- Headers + (AFAIK) Magnaflow Cat + AE92 Levin Fujitsobo Legalis-R 2.5” cat-back.
    Flywheel: Lightened 4.2kg
    Gearing: Running a C56; don’t know gearing off-hand. . .

    there are a number of reasons why you are running rich, which would need to be eliminated one by one. it is not purely ECU or compression related. has has your cooling system been upgraded, do you have a strong vac signal, is the TPS correctly calibrated, is the ECU correctly reading the TPS (ask me how i know ALL ABOUT this one), do you have any vacuum leaks, do you have an air temp sensor, air speed sensor, o2 sensor or a knock sensor?

    Cooling System: No. . . Apart from putting in a new radiator. What sort of mods you talking about?

    Yes I do have a strong enough Vac signal. I bought the harness off an Adaptronic dealer in Brisbane (KAIZEN) and remember stuffing around a fair bit with Collector Layout until I met the vacuum specs he stated < 50kPA >.

    I am running two Collectors @ layout suggested by Barry Manon;
    1. Primary (larger) collector - modified OEM Fuel rail; it runs the P/Steer, Brakes, ISCV, FPR
    2. Secondary collector – T3 unit; it just runs the MAP & Charcoal Canister

    TPS: 20V unit. Didn’t even realise it HAD to be calibrated* - I thought it was PnP?
    *Aside from needing to be mounted 180 Deg out for my installation

    Do I have Vac leaks? AFAI (& Mechanic) K . . . No.
    As far as Sensors go; AFAIK all OEM sensors have been retained & are functional.

    Cleaned up and lightly ported bigport (valves opened up a tiny bit, exhaust ports evened out, cleaning up of the casting dags and a little bit of smoothing on the ports. . .

    As mentioned; head was ported. I tidied up the match-porting they did on the inlet ports & T3 Manifold myself (the profiles didn't exactly match so I sanded them but with a too-smooth grit which probably hasn't helped matters).

    Your block even has provision for the oil squirters but just doesn't have them fitted if the engines apart it’s a 10min job for the engine shop.

    I know. I’d actually prefer to retain original block but most shops I speak to say inserting them isn't worth the hassle & tell me to get a later block.


    SPOOL crank is the same as the BC crank which are a copy of the HKS 5ag crank. they both give the same 1700cc capacity if you just use the crank, however BC also suggests you go for an 83mm piston which gives you ~1780 ccs or 1.8ltr. I'm not a fan of the 83mm piston route as it does weaken the block and can crack at the water galleries destroying a very nice engine.

    I agree; 83mm bores make me nervous. I would not want to go above 82mm (or even 81.5mm).

    SPOOL kit rod/stroke ratio is 1.39? i think? (feel free to correct me).

    Wow. . No wonder it’s not mentioned on their Site. They could not quote it when I rang them.

    ok, so why do you need a stroker crank at this stage?

    In all honesty I probably don’t; not for the duty it’s going to do at any rate. I guess I always liked the idea of the HKS 5AGE but unlike the 5AGE the 7AGE is quite affordable & within my budget. My main concerns are;

    1. The inferior block strength & that 6-bolt flywheel attachment.
    2. That the engine won’t rev like I expect a 4AGE to rev

    Having said that if MRP can get them to spin at 9000 RPM reliably then I guess it comes down to the components, assembly & balancing. . . .

    you are also aware of the block machining to fit said crank (machining of journals and base of bores) for clearancing of the rods and crank throw?

    Yes I am (for the 5AGE) but I didn’t think the 7AFE block needed crank clearance machining for 9AGE build.


    you engine is JDM, it should be closer, if not bang on, 10:1 comp. whats been modified on the fuel rail?

    Nothing. . . 100% OEM

    With the quads you get a reduced vac output and the vac block itself really only can handle a couple of things running off of it. The MAP sensor should be able to get a signal directly from the factory 20v airbox because running it off the vac block won’t give it the correct readings. so either piss it off (run ECU as reading TPS only) or plug it in somewhere else where it is getting a correct signal and not from the vac block.

    THIS is quite interesting; as it is I’m only running the MAP & Charcoal off the Secondary < T3 > Collector. I remember the Adaptronic MAP signal specs being < 50 Kpa which was achieved.

    not sure what the dashpot is... unless you mean charcoal canister? this only needs the SMALLEST of vac signals to work effectively. It’s a passive item.

    Yes, it’s the charcoal canister & small vacuum needed is why I also ran that off the small T3 collector dedicated for MAP signal.

    13:1 is the limit for 98 octane. even then is bordering on E85 requirement. its all in the tune and the tuner.

    Fair enough; to be honest I DID think 11:1 was playing it safe; especially considering I used to run an AE111 that had higher than that from Factory. Having said that it did used to ping under load even though I only put 98 into it. My brother was 1st Australian owner of that AE111 so car was quite possibly still tuned for 100 - Japs have better fuel than us. In any case I would have thought that ~ 11.5 – 12:1 was a practical limit (in case you have to use 95).

    Yes you should stick with the 16v head, but not necessarily go for the smallport head as it will not really be adding anything you require. the valves and combustion chamber are EXACTLY the same between smallport and bigport. the major difference is the intake ports being much larger for the bigport (hence the name).

    Hmm not sure I understand this; why then the mantra that the SP head is inherently superior? AFAIK back in the day; HKS used to make an insert that incorporated an annulus for the BigPort inlets. Why would they have done that if not to increase airspeed into the Ports?

    You won’t need a 272 cam, it will just increase your RPM range and thats mostly about it. if you added a set of adjustable gears you can adjust the power band a fair way with those cams so you can have a strong mid range and top out about 8500rpm should you so desire.
    I can prove a stroker crank will not be required for 130rwkw. i wouldn’t entertain the idea unless you absolutely have to.


    130 FWKW FROM A 1600 N/A block is certainly impressive but what’s the Torque curve like?

    PS: I do have adjustable Cam gears < T3 > and they've been dialled-in.


    Depending on the cam you run and how much compression you run will depend on your low/mid range response

    Yes; agreed. . .



    Right options time!

    1. Take big port head off, clean up with mild port job, fit some aftermarket pistons on factory rods to increase compression to ~11:1 rev to to ~8000rpm while keeping existing quads.


    OK, as mentioned previously in this thread the head was ported by LW Parry’s when they rebuilt the engine. Pretty sure they did the inlets as well bcz I remember them requesting the T3 inlet manifold prior to porting. There was however still a slight difference in port profile so I bolted them together and sanded them until they matched.

    get decent extractors (any name brand off the shelf will be fine) fuck off the intake you have and get a set T3 or samQ trumpets along with individual or DCOE filters. i recommend pipercross filters (have a pair of DCOE filters on mine when i decide to run them, which is never).

    All above has been done (incl. 50mm Sam-Q trumpets); please refer previous posts + photos


    should run you to about $2500 including pistons, head work and some ARP bolts for good measure.

    Referring to my previous comments would you still recommend I get the head re-done?


    2. buy complete smallport engine, skim head and block to 1mm, mild port job, fit cams and quads to smallport engine and enjoy as is. because smallport already has higher compression from factory (10.4:1) you wont need new pistons or anything, has stronger rods and larger crank and will happily turn to 8500rpm with almost not bottom end work. should cost about $2500 again for purchase of a complete engine, head work and engine being fitted (im assuming you dont do the work on the car yourself)

    An option; mainly because I can buy the engine & get it done whilst keeping the car on the road until its ready for transplant. Will also need a new < Smallport type > inlet manifold from T3. Was USD $250 in 2011, probably $300-350 now.

    I have generally done / generally do ALL mechanical work myself. I degree’d the cams (checked OK by mechanic) but have not ever rebuilt a block. I would ( if I had the space / inclination / time) be game to do it with a stock (i.e. cheap) bottom end but I wouldn’t chance it with $$$ components.

    3. Buy 20v bottom end, bolt 16v head on as is and enjoy your 11.5-12:1 compression ratio straight off the bat. 16v is non interference engine and valves WILL NOT hit the 20v pistons even with your cams (you'd need at least 9.5mm or bigger lift to become an interference engine). i watched james and john do this with a smallport corolla James had at the time. you should ask him about it.

    Will do; but it’s hard enough to p/u Blacktop anything these days; usually whole engine from a Wrecker @ $1800-2K and if yer gonna buy a whole Blacktop then why not use it? My wiring’s already set up; all I need to do is get the COP adaptor plate off SQ Engineering.

    if the heads off may as well get it worked on anyway to work with the compression increase.

    As per previous comments; is this necessary considering heads already been done?

    silvertop bottom end is the same as smallport and the factory redline is 8000rpm, blacktop has lighter rods but is a better design and just as strong as smallport/silvertop with the factory redline at 8300rpm. so feel free to rev it hard.

    So why all the commentary about the B/T bottom end being more fragile than S/T due to thinner rods?


    if it costs more than $1500 all up you got dudded somewhere along the way.

    Noted. . .


    4. fit a complete blacktop 20v engine with 6sp. seriously great engine straight up, will make as much if not slightly more power than the bigport now and do it everywhere through the rev range. downside is it is a used engine, so can be risks with getting a dud (rare, but it happens). engine will work with the Adaptronic and runs well with it and can also control the VVT for better spread of power. hell the 6sp itself is worth its weight it gold for waking up an ordinary 4ag.

    I used to have an AE111 BZR; you're right, great engine but I've reservations about that 6speed. It's too fragile for hard use. If I ever got another AE111, and had any intention of tracking it I’d flick the C160 for a C56 (got my C56 + Headers from a BZR front-cut).

    engine + gearbag ranges from $1800 - $2800, but it wont require pulling apart (unless to check it) and will just need a set of extractors to suit the 20v engine. as the blocks are the same it uses the same engine mounts as the 16v so it will bolt right in.

    Have thought about this (m-a-n-y times). Extractors sorted - mine are 20V FGK’s with flange modified for 16V head. Main reason I haven't is that I'm a stubborn purist. I want to retain the character of the car & putting a BT in it just seems like a cop-out to me. I don't want to give up on the 16V. . . .

    5. full retard.

    In another (financially more successful) life maybe. . .
    Last edited by GeeEss; 28-08-2015 at 12:24 AM.

  12. #27
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    I did an ultra tight arse re-build on mine for a whole $1600 (cut crank, deck/hone block, service head, new bearings, new rings, TRD headgasket, ARP head/main studs, ARP rod bolts, close and honed rods, valve springs, new oil pump, full gasket set). Re-used my 264's (cause no compression) and smashed used smallport pistons in; thing made a shade over 90rwkw - baller budget build. Ran harder on the dyno than Vilo's 20v too

    Have no doubt that a set of 12.5:1 pistons along with a set of bigger cams and some basic headwork would of easily cracked 110rwkw+;
    Super simple motors to build, blow out the rod clearance a bit, stick a shim in the oil pump and file the rings a bit looser than stock and you've hit a home run.
    There aint many tricks to putting one together, just prep the rods if your going to run it over 8000rpm.

  13. #28
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Blacktop BEAMS fits in an AW11 with smart thinking, should fit a corolla too.
    TrackDub - 89' AW11 1MZFE | SlushDub - 89' AW11 4AGZE
    http://www.midrear.net - My AW11 blog of DIY mechanics, grassroots motorsports and driveway shenanigans...

  14. #29
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    Also, go a C60 Celica gear set in a C52 gearbox housing. The C60 is similar to the S series boxes and can handle more then the C160's. You can also get a factory Torsen LSD for them from a ZZW30
    TrackDub - 89' AW11 1MZFE | SlushDub - 89' AW11 4AGZE
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  15. #30
    Toymods Club Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: 4AGE Stroker kits

    That's all well & good but at the end of the day I am as my moniker says, a Backyard Mechanic - not an engine builder. . . .

    A lot of you guys are from the Trade & know where to get things done; what aftermarket parts work etc etc.

    It's a whole different ball-game for tinkering Joes like me; we're at the mercy of whoever's doing the work*.

    In the last week I've spoken & listened to various people and each has his own idea (sometimes two or three) on how things should be done.

    I'm careful because as they say; measure twice, cut once. I'll probably end up "measuring" 10 times because I don't want to end up a guinea pig for some guy's auto-experiment; esp. not @ $110-120 / hour.

    Sydney has 4M+ people & you can count the number of bona-fide 4AGE specialists on one hand (and still have fingers left over. . .).

    It's a lottery out there.
    Last edited by GeeEss; 25-04-2015 at 12:19 AM.

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