1UZ Early Non-VVT-i setup *with* Late VVT-i Heads *but* with Early ECU/Harness/etc??

[JKLMATE]

Hi guys, bit of an odd ball question here..

So common consensus seems to be that 1UZ VVT-i heads flow better than the earlier model's arrangement without variable timing gear... I'm led to believe this is due to differences in factory porting of the heads and later model's specific lower manifold.
I'm not sure how much of those claims of 'better flow' are based upon the fact that VVT-i heads have variable intake timing/duration...? (it is the internet after all)

I've basically got a halfcut of a non-VVT-i Soarer and engine fitment will be sorted out soon. For good measure I'll be freshening up the bottom end, but before I go any further with the Non-VVTi heads I would like some advice on the later model's heads and potentially removing the VVT-i components.
I know the improvements will be virtually nonexistent on a dead stock engine, but this project will be long-term and I'd like to eventually boost it without having to double back over my work too much or the PITA of hunting for assorted parts again. I'd just like to get this running for now so i can move onto other things.

>>> Moving on....

Given I've got everything for a for an early model and it's a lot more straight forward to get it running on a stock ECU... I'd like to know if I held off and kept and eye out for some late model heads would I be able to run them some how with different a UZ's cam assemblies??? Like a Non-VVT-i 1/2/3UZ???
I know I can adapt late model heads to an early block with some oil feed issues, but that would require getting another late ECU/loom/more and then getting it all running. (I probably should have saved up more and got early crank/pistons/rods with a late halfcut and aftermarket ECU...)

So... running late model heads on an early model block/ECU? Can this be done in a relatively straight forward way???

What are my potential options? Do early cams swap out with late ones and still function with the valvetrain? Or is it still completely unworkable with no chance of swapping valve assembly and the likes over?

Alternatively, maybe there is a sensible way to use late model heads on an early block/ECU/harness?

Cheers & Thanks...

[George]

going the frankenstein way by stitching random parts together will ultimately produce random result
in other words
what can be built out of fk knows what? fk knows what

[dumbass]

how r u going to control the cams
throw the 1uz away and just get an ls1 ls2 or lsa
more power and easily tuned

also the vvti has maybe 30 more kws power
and u want to go thru all this trouble which prob wont work for 30 kws
it would be cheaper to turbo the 1uz

[JKLMATE]

how r u going to control the cams
throw the 1uz away and just get an ls1 ls2 or lsa
more power and easily tuned

also the vvti has maybe 30 more kws power
and u want to go thru all this trouble which prob wont work for 30 kws
it would be cheaper to turbo the 1uz

Well I'm not sure if it's even doable, I was hoping someone out there would be familiar with the camshafts and valve-train assemblies on both the early/late the heads.

Realistically, all it would take is for the camshafts, heads or valvetrain to be out of spec and that's game over really for any sensible budget... (Apart from somehow getting around the VVT-i setup)
But *theoretically,* if there is not much deviation between Toyota's early/late designs - then is it not possible to put early cams in late head, then, just run the factory ecu/ignition and distributors on both cam gears?

I need a front sump anyway, so if it's relatively doable, it doesn't seem all that crazy to me and better yet I could just buy a whole engine with a stuffed bottom end...

[cervus]

The camshaft are completely different, the cogs are in the middle in the early ones and at the front on the late ones, same as the 2uz, then the ignition is completely different, distributor etc early, coil on plug late ones and so on.. I don't know if it's worth the hassle, at this point go vvti and keep in mind to change conrods if you boost it, or don't bother, early 1uz, a bit more boost to make up for the less flowing heads

[JKLMATE]

The camshaft are completely different, the cogs are in the middle in the early ones and at the front on the late ones, same as the 2uz, then the ignition is completely different, distributor etc early, coil on plug late ones and so on..

Any clue as to whether or not cam early/late cam gears are mounted in a similar way?
Surely it wouldn't be too difficult mounting distributors if the cam gears are workable or even directly swappable, then there would be little variation if any between the blocks and timing belt I'm quite sure.
I suppose getting a dizzy to work with a locked up VVT-i assembly is would be messy but is another means to an end.

[clubagreenie]

OK.

The non VVTi cams are scissor driven in the centre, VVTi units are driven at the front to allow for the VVTi mech which is operated by oil pressure fed from the block up though the head. Distributors WILL NEVER fit the front of a VVTi without probably 30K to spend and even then you'd have the cam timing changing and all sorts of fun and games with firing ignition timed right. The cams will also never fit into the opposite heads. Locking the VVTi really just means never supplying oil pressure to it. While engine pressure is relatively low (by comparison to real hydraulic pressures) the VVTi mech is very tight and can't be turned by hand even in the vice and various ways and means. The VVTi system runs off 3 lobes on the cam at 0 & +/- 130 degrees (by memory). Couldn't be made to run with A/M ECU so just cut the 130deg lobes off and ran it as a on/off switch. Came on like a scalded cat at around 2500rpm and would hold to redline at 10K and just scare you because the revs just keep going.

The original ECU will obviously run it all but you also need the ign barrel as it's part of the security (only one person I know bypassed this (I THINK) and he's slightly retired from doing wiring unfortunately (Damm you Mos)). Where would you put the distributors on the VVTi heads? The fit to the front of the heads. Will NOT EVER fit VVTi units.

Basically any non VVTi should swap over and any VVTi should. The 1UZ non VVTi doesn't have the oil feed port or the blank casting either, the 2UZ has the casting but doesn't have the oil port drilled. This is a very specialised job to do and not just any machine shop is willing to do it because error means scrapped block.

With the front sump (or any really) they are prone to surge.

Spend enough time (5 years) and money (50K) and you can end up with something like this.

HPI_Photoshoot_Jun10_00004.jpg

[George]

clubagreenie you're not right about only one person being able to bypass the security on a Toyota.
Other than that, plenty of interesting details but I could describe it in fewer words )

[JKLMATE]

The non VVTi cams are scissor driven in the centre, VVTi units are driven at the front to allow for the VVTi mech which is operated by oil pressure fed from the block up though the head. Distributors WILL NEVER fit the front of a VVTi without probably 30K to spend and even then you'd have the cam timing changing and all sorts of fun and games with firing ignition timed right. ... While engine pressure is relatively low (by comparison to real hydraulic pressures) the VVTi mech is very tight and can't be turned by hand even in the vice and various ways and means.

Hi mate thanks for the response. Someone has already pointed out the camshafts gears/profile is too different, that should have occurred to me - but anyway, just before I was asking/wondering about the cam (timing?) gears themselves where the timing belt is.

Given that the VVTI assembly on end of both cams are removable, as is the dizzy/cam gear on non-vvti... Surely a gear with the appropriate offset to cam position and timing belt would still operate the cams and rotate with the crank properly?

Unless I'm totally missing something in the VVT-i/valvetrain assembly in these late models.. I'd imagine it would?!? So unless the timing of the lobes on the cams controlling the intake/exhaust valve opening/closing times is very different to that of the early non-VVT-i.... it's possible?
In this case mounting dizzy over the cam is not hard if you can get this far.

With the front sump (or any really) they are prone to surge.

I haven't heard of the front sump being specifically prone to surge before, what makes it a problem? Less width in sump than the mid/rear, or the pickup position??
Have you got a link to an old thread or something? Because I'll have to use a front sump for my car.

Cheers

[JustenGT8]

Nope, VVTi cams would still have the long internals once the VVTi mech is removed and this would foul the dissy. As Greenie says, just can't do it.

The 2UZ cams will fit the VVTi head with a little would and you could fit the non VVTi dissys to these....but why?

Unless you had all the bits acquired for nicks and can do all the work yourself it's an expensive exercise with an uncertain outcome.

If you have a VVTi then stuff it full of cheap forged internals, run whatever ignition your AF ECU can cope with and enjoy 500rwkw...easy

[JKLMATE]

The 2UZ cams will fit the VVTi head with a little would and you could fit the non VVTi dissys to these....but why?

That ^ would be perfect..... and cheap if no dramas are encountered. But.. any idea yourself, or where I might find the profiles of the different UZ cams? (short of buying and comparing them)

It means I could finish this rebuild completely, and I wouldn't have to go doubling back and doing heads again later.

I could find a rooted LS400 engine, stash the VVTi gear in a box if I wanted them later, then it's just a matter of using heads/sump/(2uz cams?) on the harness/ecu I have now - that would be beautiful!!

[JustenGT8]

Kelford and Waggot will both do decent regrinds in a range of profiles...Kelford list their grinds on their webpage.

No it won't be cheap, but it's feasible and also negates the need to access the additonal oil feed as there's no VVTi to worry about. This was one path i was persuing before biting the bullet and just going with a fully built VVTi

[JKLMATE]

Bumping this for anyone else out there who might be interested in going somewhere with this...

I was hoping to use these 2UZ non-VVT-i camshafts in 1UZ VVT-i heads... I was going to use the non-VVT-i computer with a homemade ignition multiplexer.... This would have worked a treat and allowed me to use the individual coil packs.
BUT, now that I have all the parts in front of me... using 2UZ non-VVT-i cams in 1UZ VVT-i heads is just not at all practically possible. (All is not lost, read below)

Extra Info:
* 2UZ non-VVTi exhaust cams are physically a direct swap, cannot say if their timing/lift is the same or different...
* To those few out there with bored/sleeved 1UZ's then using any complete 2UZ heads should be fine for you.
* To anyone wanting to pursue this, I suggest you disassemble the VVT-i assemblies down to just the rear sections, from there, you'll need to machine a pair of cam gears to suit the end of the cam and bolt to the existing flange on the rear of the VVT-i housing.
* You will at least need to press fit a small alloy lug into the bottom of the VVT-i heads to avoid oil pooling/leaks around head gasket. * Obviously there will be a few sensors/solenoids that will be redundant and need to be blocked in a similar manner, but this is easy.

[greenmac80]

how r u going to control the cams
throw the 1uz away and just get an ls1 ls2 or lsa
more power and easily tuned

also the vvti has maybe 30 more kws power
and u want to go thru all this trouble which prob wont work for 30 kws
it would be cheaper to turbo the 1uz

your username seems so fiting right now. LS1? really? No denying they make power. But youd expect that from a motor that size. They are a dinosaur motor an even though the 1uz will make less its still a far superior engine.