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Thread: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

  1. #1
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic Rhyno's Avatar
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    Default Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Hi Everyone,

    Been doing a fair bit of research into the old 5sgte build for a while now, and got my heads around most of the details of what is required/reccomended, 98+ 5s block, arp head studs, new bearings, gaskets and seals all round. There is many a detailed thread on how to best go about this, which I would like to thank all contributors for.

    I have come to be very fond of VVTI in the last few months and have an oppourtunity to part with the gen 2 parts I have been collecting for a reasonable price, so thought now was a good time to start the discussion. I'm not looking for people to say "don't waste your money, you can make 1 million hp with a built 3sgte" - I know this and was heading in this direction, however I value driveabilty and power over just outright power. Not to mention the other benefits of VVTI.

    Max HP goal will be 600hpatw, may never get there but would like to have a package suitable of taking a heavy pounding

    So my current plan is something along these lines:

    5s 98+ block
    5s water pump
    5s oil pump
    3sgte sump (probs gen 2, maybe 3 if I can find one)
    3sgte Windage Tray
    5s crank
    Custom pistons - not sure on exact details of pin height or CR yet, but probably in the 9s to 9.5s
    Rods - thinking some Spool jobbies, but may go for something lighter
    BEAMS black top head, dual VVTI - yes with the manifold facing the wrong way for transverse layout...
    Intake Manifold - modify stock one, or bolt on red top mani if possible, but I doubt the ports are the same or someone would have done it by now. Maybe aftermarket if they exist
    Valves - stock for now
    Cam's - stock for now
    ECU - not sure, currently running Microtech lt10s with 4 bosch coils, but will need to upgrade to something capable of running the VVTI
    Exaust Manifold - Custom mani with T3 plate
    Turbo - Thinking a GT3540 or a precision equiverlant

    Now finding the parts, the 5s stuff is easy to come by, but the BEAMS ovisouly, not so much. I'm thinking of buying an Automatic BEAMS longblock to strip the head and wiring loom off, then put the block up for sale, as its not tapped for the transverse engine mounts - unless these can be easily tapped?

    So main questions I would like to ask are :

    Does a red top inlet mani bolt up to a black top head? Assuming no, aftermarket inlet manifolds, that are rear facing?

    Have you seen a BEAMS black head for sale anywhere?

    Can the BEAMS block be tapped to suit transverse engine mounts?

    Reccomendations on ECU

    Thanks for reading everyone

  2. #2
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    I have no idea wether it can be done, but on a side note any 2.2 litre capacity motor putting out around 600 rwhp is not going to have good driveability low down, so in my eyes you need to come down a long way in your ultimate goal to make it driveable as you say you Value in a motor ..

  3. #3
    Forum Member 1st year Apprentice
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    I might be selling my BEAMS Auto G1 blacktop(have engine, trans, accessories, ecu and a loom that I cut at the firewall, because I was in a rush) and aim for a half cut when time and money are better suited for me to do a conversion. I want the auto and AC etc so a halfcut would better suit my plans.

    Have a look at New Zealand, heaps of cheap Altezza and 3SGE BEAMS parts there.

    www.trademe.co.nz

  4. #4
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia stidnam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    I know a mate who has a beams black top auto head and a 5sfe block that he wants to sell if you are interested. Would possibly sell the head separately PM if you want more details.

  5. #5
    Junior Member Domestic Engineer
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    I have done a tiny amount of research and my finding/opinions:
    Manual black top has titanium valves. IMO this makes the head safer to rev.
    Beau Yates ran a black to head but disabled the vvti on the exhaust. Not sure the reason but noteworthy.
    As far as I know your going to need a high end ecu to control dual vvti haltech platinum series can't do dual. Elite might be able havnt looked. But maybe need motec or vipec. Just be aware.
    As for sumps.... Gen 3 3sgte sump is same as red top beams for the most part. These suit east west. Black top sump is similar but poor oil filter location. How ever black top suits north south mounting....
    My opinion. Black top pump is highest flow. So black top pump. And then red top or gen 3 3sgte sump. This will require clearance grinding. Water pump for me was gonna be electric but keep the pulley and no fins on the pump so I can use the stock timing belt set up.

    Adding a 5s means you will need to find a oil feed for the vvti and turbo. Not hard but another complication.
    98+ 5sfe block is strongest.

    My suggestions is red top is a lot easier as most ecu can run it and it will have the sump you want. Just swap the block and crank for 5s. Put an adjust exhaust cam gear and your good to go. It's coil on plug I believe too.
    1990 ST185 Running stock Gen 3 power, 216awhp at 15psi. 13.6 second down the quarter

  6. #6
    Hopefully soon a 5S-GTE Chief Engine Builder MWP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Another, probably better option is to use a complete redtop head/block, and use a 5S crank in it.
    The BEAMS engine blocks were much improved from the earlier weaker 3S blocks.

    If you still want to go with a 5S block, read on ....

    Agreed on going with a redtop head. It'll save a *lot* of hassle, and youll only lose one VVTi cam.

    Make sure you get a +98 5S block.
    It'll have an oil pump with crank angle sensor, and a square corner behind the water pump.

    If you go with a 3sgte gen3/4 or redtop sump, youll need a redtop or blacktop oil pump.
    If you go with a +98 5S oil pump (you'll want +98 to get the crank pos sensor), youll need a 3sgte gen2 or 5s sump.

    For the flywheel youll want one of these (i bought mine from here): http://www.koracing.net/viewproduct....88&product=537
    Use the genuine toyota 5S flywheel bolts.

    Youll need to work out how to get oil to the VVTI.
    Either by boring holes down through the block, or via external hoses to to a fitting welded to the head.

    What car is this going into?

  7. #7
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic Rhyno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Hi Everyone,

    Thanks every one for your response, will respond in order of posts

    Lexmax; you are correct a 600hp 4 cyl will not have good driveability down low - hence trying to optimise it where I can with VVTI. 600hp is also a max ever goal, not my current goal. Current goal is actually 400ish hpatw, but going to build the block to take more if I ever feel the need to go faster.

    War_Machine and Stidnam; thanks guys, will keep you in mind if I decide to go the Auto Black Top route

    aus jd 2703; Agree with you about the Manual BT. Thanks for the info on Beau Yates, did some research and can't confirm why the ex VVTI was disabled. Need to find out more on this as I have seen this done on a couple of BEAMS BT's on the ex side only... Will just go a red top if the reasons suits my requirements. Thinking high lift exhaust cam might be the reason to disable? But not as high on the intake, still allowing VVTI actuation?

    MWP; Thanks for the info and the link, will do. Getting oil to the VVTI head on a 5s seems as "simple" as plugging the oil feed from the block and tapping the head to suit an exteranal feed - but I'm thinking otherwise now... Car is an SV21 currently running gen 1 3sge and gen 2 ct26

    After much more reading and all your inputs I'm leaning towards just going a red top head and block with custom oversive pistons to go up to 2.1L capacity or so, dependant on block walls, to bring the CR down, and make a rev happy turbo motor (under square), have oil squirters, and all the other goods.

    Just want to confirm, why would one disable the VVTI on the exhaust side of a forced induction set up? There must be a valid reason. If so, happy to give up on the BT now and live with a RT

    Thanks again all

  8. #8
    Junior Member Domestic Engineer
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    I suspect beau ran single vvti as haltech ecu can only control one cam.
    ecu will be the deciding factor I feel, you will either afford a motec/ haltech elite and run dual vvti or you wont have the coin (not a dig, I couldn't afford it either.) and will go the red top single vvti option. imo effort spent on a 2.3L stroker is probably better than the effort of vvti....
    1990 ST185 Running stock Gen 3 power, 216awhp at 15psi. 13.6 second down the quarter

  9. #9
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    [OT]
    Pretty sure a LINK G4+ Storm will do full seq' Ign & Fuel on a 4cyl + Dual VVti
    If not the Extreme def. does.
    They also have an 'Altezza LINK' P'n'P unit

    The ViPEC i44 & i88 are similarly spec (if not better?).
    [/OT]

    Given Toyota never bothered implementing VVTi on the zorst side of the *JZ-GTE engines probably says something....
    And the extra cubes you're planning will be a 'better' investment really.
    Last edited by e30-323ti; 20-06-2014 at 06:06 PM.

  10. #10
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic Rhyno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Hi Guys,

    Yeah Aus JD not many ECU's do it, but have found a nice "newish" option for MR2's that would suit, and allow me to sell my eboost2 and wideband controller and recoop some of the costs as its all in one, and don't have to worry about adding a flex fuel sender later on, and only $1,736.00 http://www.atsracing.net/Parts/Details/EL-EMU-PNP

    e30 will have to check them out by comparison. Good point about the 2J vvti on intake only. I'm starting to assume that VVTI is not essential on the exhaust side for tuning. Still haven't found anthing definitive though

  11. #11
    1MZ > 2JZ Carport Converter knightrous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Quote Originally Posted by e30-323ti View Post
    Given Toyota never bothered implementing VVTi on the zorst side of the *JZ-GTE engines probably says something....
    It probably says that the *JZ motor is was too old for yet another revision.
    Majority of Toyota's newer motors run dual VVTI (2GR is bigger then the 2JZ yet has VVTI).

  12. #12
    Junior Member Domestic Engineer
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    ive bought a DP and their stealth adapter plates for gt28 turbo and tbh not impressed with the quality... plus who in Australia tunes their ecu? you will likely struggle. money saved on initial purchased will quickly be consumed if the tuner takes longer..
    also plug and play wont work with a beams engine anyway as its COP and you need at least 3 new wires to fire the coils. don't let the cheap price fool you, I think long run it will cost you a lot more especially if your flex tuning as youll need 2-3 times more tuning time...
    fyi a base tune for 98 or E85 (not a dual tune or flex tune) is 800-1500 depending on tunes so a flex tune is easily $2k.... not cheap
    1990 ST185 Running stock Gen 3 power, 216awhp at 15psi. 13.6 second down the quarter

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Have to agree that dual VVTI will give the greatest potential for all out power and best drivability. It gives you more options to reduce your compromises, but only if everything is working in harmony.
    Quote Originally Posted by oldcorollas
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  14. #14
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic Rhyno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    Hi Guys,

    Hi Knightrous, your right it could be interperated that way, perhaps the 2J was too old for another revision. One thing to note is that all dual VVTI or VVTI-L motors that Toyota have made have been relased as naturally aspirated or non-turbo. Which makes me wonder - why not? When used on a NA motor, it optimise's it everywhere. But haven't seen a Toyota dual VVTI turbo set up, ever from factory. Perhaps the exhaust is not so important, as the main concern is getting the exhaust gasses out to spool the turbo, perhaps VVTI can do funny things for spool... don't think so though as there where some Turbo kits made for the Altezza...

    Sorry to read that Aus JD regarding the adaptor. Regarding the ECU, I'm still at the plannning stage so may end up going something different if I don't go dual VVTI. Aware of tuning costs as I'm already running a Microtech lt10s with x4 controller and indivual coils. I don't see this as a bad thing regarding costs, we all spend thousands on are cars modifiying them, I think a few dollars towards optimising a set up is a good thing, even if it is $2-3K. I'm not rich by any means but can live with it as it is a one off cost.

    I agree DUK, on paper it does sound like the best bet, but I have not been able to find any articles or info to confirm it. Found a few instances of the exhaust VVTI being disabled though, which has lead to more questions.

    If any one has seen anything regarding VVTI turbo tuning on any make of car, I would love to have a look.

    Thanks for the replys and reading,

    Kind regards

    Ryan

  15. #15
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q: BEAMS dual VVTI head on a 5sgte build

    It may have something to do with the fact that the scavenging effect doesnt really play much of a part with turbos due to the very short runners before the collector. I'm only speculating though
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
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