Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17

Thread: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

  1. #1
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Victoria
    Posts
    854

    Default Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Hey all,
    I've done a wealth of reading up in the many awesome threads not only on toymods, but club4ag and billzillas awesome site. I just still find it hard to make a decision on which setup to go (and which supporting mods to do to get them running reliably)

    I've got an ae92 Corolla with a 4age small port and i've been wanting to do cams for a number of years, in particular to a 4age motor.

    I have limited expectations, especially considering that I am hoping to get away with aftermarket cams on the stock smallport ae92 ecu.

    The reasons behind sticking with a stock ecu is to keep the legal side intact and reduce complexities with having to get a dyno tune.

    In the back of my mind i'd love to see a set of ITBs, but I couldn't see any way of making them streetable/legal unless they were completely boxed up which defeats the purpose of having such a nice intake note.

    My current engine mod list is going to be pretty mild:
    4-2-1 Hurricane Extractors (most likely not much better than the stock ones but my factory manifold is cracked)
    2.25" cat back System
    High Flow Cat

    Cams seem to be the one thing i've never experienced, i've removed cams in the past and done timing belts so the assembly will be no worries (just need to learn how to measure shims as i've never needed to do it before).

    The info on Billzilla mentions upto 272 degree cams can be run on the stock ecu,

    Lift seems to be the biggest attribute to requiring shim under bucket conversions which I would prefer not to have to do.

    Its still a daily driver, so I am hoping to still keep it somewhat streetable but from reading up online I still think there is some potential in a streetable cam on the stock ecu.

    Power wise i'd love what Billzilla would rate as the 150-160hp range (or around 115kw at the fly), just before requiring ECU work done.

    I must admit the process of an aftermarket ecu and tune seems to daunt me somewhat, especially knowing the car is a daily and I need it to still be reliable. I always think an aftermarket ecu would be less reliable than the factory unit (which rarely gives trouble).

    A little history on the car i'm driving, I got onto Toymods back in 2003 without knowing anything (I still know only a little lol), was driving my dads 4afc powered AE92 corolla sedan and always dream't of modifying it to "corolla sx" spec but wasn't able to buy the car off him. Well after 10 years i've actually bought one, and converted a CSX model to EFI and as much Corolla SX gear as possible (I have a thing for sedans). Now that the 4age 16v small port is in, I really want to see what it would be like with some cams.

    Thanks
    ZZT-231 Toyota Celica SX

  2. #2
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    5,486

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Quote Originally Posted by trd_st184 View Post
    The info on Billzilla mentions upto 272 degree cams can be run on the stock ecu,
    They will run but like a bucket of shit.
    I tried 264's on a MAP bigport, ran well WOT giving it some but it wouldnt idle and consumed shitloads of fuel as a daily as the map signal was fucked from the overlap.

  3. #3
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,243

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    You are wasting your time. Don't bother with cams on a stock ecu. Not gonna get into the nitty gritty because I cant be fucked starting another argument so all I will say is go and do a search, it's been discussed extensively both theoretically and in practice (with the results being that more than a few people have had their cars run like crap and/or end up needing a rebuild).

    There is a very simple rule I follow with 4A ecus. If the mods you are doing are going to cause a significant power increase, then you need an aftermarket ecu for the car to run them. If the mods you are doing dont cause a significant power increase, then why are you doing them at all?

    By that logic, any mods that are worthwile to a 4A will mean you need to get an aftermarket ecu
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  4. #4
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic jondee86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Wellington, NZ
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    I got some of these...
    PDM C.709.S Toyota Stage II 261 Street Cams:
    Intake/Exhaust - 223 duration @.050”, .326 lift.

    From here...
    http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/cam_corner.html

    Dropped them in on a smallport with no other mods, and ran them on the factory ECU. Ran good... felt just like stock but with a bit more power across the board. Put on an Apexi filter and inlet kit, and it pulled a bit harder at the top end. Didn't upgrade the exhaust, so probably didn't get the best out of them... kind of marginal improvement for the money.

    Then I upgraded to 272's, vernier cam wheels, ITB's and Adaptronic management... and you can really feel the difference. Now I HAVE to upgrade the exhaust system, which is underway at the moment. So I say if you have the urge, and can score some 256 deg cams with a bit of extra lift for a decent price... go for it It won't turn your car into a tire shredding monster, but it should put a little more fun into your daily commute.

    Cheers... jondee86

  5. #5
    loves hi RPMS Backyard Mechanic
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    nsw
    Posts
    283

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    You are wasting your time. Don't bother with cams on a stock ecu. Not gonna get into the nitty gritty because I cant be fucked starting another argument so all I will say is go and do a search, it's been discussed extensively both theoretically and in practice (with the results being that more than a few people have had their cars run like crap and/or end up needing a rebuild).

    There is a very simple rule I follow with 4A ecus. If the mods you are doing are going to cause a significant power increase, then you need an aftermarket ecu for the car to run them. If the mods you are doing dont cause a significant power increase, then why are you doing them at all?

    By that logic, any mods that are worthwile to a 4A will mean you need to get an aftermarket ecu
    very much this. had a stock ECU and stock smallport cams on 12.5:1 engine, EVERYTHING was immediately better after i fitted the programmable ECU. an a whole lot better after the big cams went in.

    Quote Originally Posted by jondee86 View Post
    So I say if you have the urge, and can score some 256 deg cams with a bit of extra lift for a decent price... go for it It won't turn your car into a tire shredding monster, but it should put a little more fun into your daily commute.

    Cheers... jondee86
    also this if your determined.
    256 deg (advertised duration) is pretty much as big as you will want to go with the stock ECU. can be had sort of cheap, but you may as well do your valve springs, cam gears and whatever else you can think of as well. so it will add up quickly.
    for an even cheaper exercise get some bigport cams and throw those in. being 245 deg and 7.5mm lift compared to the miniscule smallport cams at 232deg it will give you a whole lot more in the top without really sacrificing anything else in terms of drivability.

    FYI any cam swap will need to be accompanied by a clearance check of the shims and buckets. do a search there is a thread on how to do it on here.
    Last edited by xero; 31-01-2014 at 07:56 PM.
    N/A for life...

  6. #6
    Junior Member Conversion King
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    ACT
    Posts
    2,510

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    bigport cams are 240 degree 7.56mm lift to be exact.
    I've managed to score a few pairs of unknown 4AG NA cams, possibly bigport. Once I measure I'll know whether I'll have more than one pair of 240 degree ones (thinking about using them myself on my GZE) and will throw them your way for beer money trd_st184.

    Cam shims are new to me too but the AW11 BGB describes how to measure it really well. Got myself a 32 blade feeler set so should be fine once I finally get my engine rebuild underway.
    Autodub - 1987 AW11 G-Limited, Dark Blue Mica 4AGZE T-Top 4EAT

  7. #7
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    sydney
    Posts
    12,496

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Microsquirt and probably Megasquirt will fit in a stock ECU case.... jus' sayin'



    or... it could look like a small alarm system..
    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...nly-p-519.html
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
    "There is hardly anything in the world that a man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper" - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

    AU$TRALIA... come and stay and PAY and PAY!!! The moral high horse of the world!

  8. #8
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    1,416

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    You are wasting your time. Don't bother with cams on a stock ecu.
    http://mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=468649 - with a bit of tuning... (diligence) 146whp on stock AFM type management... that is a 40% increase in power while retaining OEM management.

    Now this wasn't just cams...... it got the whole internal treatment.. pistons, some head work, AND cams... but to say, "You are wasting your time. Don't bother with cams on a stock ecu. " that is more than a bit short sighted
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  9. #9
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Victoria
    Posts
    854

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Its interesting to see oldeskewltoys links, on further investigation I found the Tomei Poncam 264 Degree cams seem to be marketed very well as an excellent bolt in option:

    Lift (EX)
    Part Number
    MSRP (USD)
    Remarks
    Duration (IN) 264°
    Duration (EX)264°
    Lift (IN) 8.15
    Lift (IN) 8.15
    Part Number 143056
    $580.00

    All the comments specified seem to point it as a great option (considering the cheap price of around $684 aus on ebay) compared to $1100+ for the HKS gear i've found.

    Here were the Pon Cam Comments:
    ■ Plenty of response, the true NA feeling all the way up to redline.
    ■ Retains smooth idle.
    ■ With extensive R&D, the best valve timing possible for a completely bolt-on and go camshaft.
    ■ Increased compression ratio for increased performance.
    ■ Compatible with stock, or even a 4 throttle setup.
    ■ A balanced specification at 264°.
    ZZT-231 Toyota Celica SX

  10. #10
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,243

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Quote Originally Posted by dnegative View Post
    They will run but like a bucket of shit.
    I tried 264's on a MAP bigport, ran well WOT giving it some but it wouldnt idle and consumed shitloads of fuel as a daily as the map signal was fucked from the overlap.
    TRD st184, see above for how a MAP 4A runs on poncams.

    OST - *In my opinion* pulling apart the AFM, adding an adjustable fuel pressure reg, pulling 3 degrees of timing and adding water injection for it still to knock does not make for a sound business case, especially on a stock engine which doesn't have the advantages of forged pistons and a cleaned up combustion chamber. Considering I was able to get my 4AGTE running and driving smoothly in 15 minutes from a completely untuned aftermarket ecu, I will just have to agree to disagree with you. It is just too much fucking around for an imperfect solution imo..

    Also RE the dyno plot - we all know these are not the best yardsticks in the world, he himself points out the tuner fucked up the RPM calibration so the dyno was reading higher than it should've been anyway, so yeah that 140rwhp.... dunno how much weight I would be putting on that either...
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  11. #11
    loves hi RPMS Backyard Mechanic
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    nsw
    Posts
    283

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Quote Originally Posted by trd_st184 View Post
    on further investigation I found the Tomei Poncam 264 Degree cams seem to be marketed very well as an excellent bolt in option:
    g]
    Bolt on option refers to the fact that you can just fit them to the head WITHOUT having to change the valve springs or requiring a valve train upgrade.
    TRDEE knows what he is talking about, having been there myself I having TRDEE help me with my engine (and vice versa) there are other areas that would benefit from improvement before cams.
    On another Toyota forum I saw an adaptronic for sale for $350
    N/A for life...

  12. #12
    loves hi RPMS Backyard Mechanic
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    nsw
    Posts
    283

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Doppelgänger posten farken
    N/A for life...

  13. #13
    1941cc 2T-G Domestic Engineer w810sc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    nsw
    Posts
    782

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    trd_st184 I've pretty much got the same specs on my small port except I have a standard exhaust system behind Hurricane 4:2:1 extractors and Toda 3.9kg flywheel.

    I've tried the HKS 264 degree 8.1mm lift intake and exhaust cam on my small port. Installation was a straight fit, I just had to swap over the shims to get the right clearances. I use Techno Toy Tunning adjustable cam pully's to set the cams up. It's a good cam for mid and top end even on a standard ecu but you lose the response down low as a trade off. It took a bit of time but I got them to idle. I had them on 110icl/110ecl to start off and through the feel of the engine I advanced the intake to 105 for better bottom end response.

    I've also tried the HKS 256 degree 8.1mm lift intake cam and Toda 256 degree 7.9mm lift exhaust cam. Same deal with installation, I just had to swap over the shims. I've tried these with the standard cam pully and they idle and are drivable. With the T3 adjustable cam pully's, I had them at 110icl/112ecl with close to standard idle but poor bottom end response. I advanced the intake to 108 and it improved. Now I have it at 105icl/108ecl and it's improved even more with the response down low.

    There's a few more settings I'd like to try out when I find the time.

    cheers.
    deepdishfactory
    2T-G - Half the valves but twice the fun.

  14. #14
    Olde mechanic Carport Converter oldeskewltoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    1,416

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Oh... here is my smallport - http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/sho...=1#post1090620

    little if any worries about dyno inaccuracies on my engine... it has been on 3 different dynos, (2 momentum based, one steady state) and I'm planting somewhere between 140 and 145 whp...
    Information is POWER... learn the facts!!

  15. #15
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    NSW
    Posts
    10,243

    Default Re: Recommendations for 4age 16v Small Port cams

    Am I missing something in that link OST? The rundown you give under the dyno plot shows that the engine is nowhere near standard, and neither is it running stock management. Relevance?
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

Similar Threads

  1. small port or big port 4age for turbo setup?
    By luke ae86 in forum Tech and Conversions
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 03-04-2013, 12:43 PM
  2. 4age big port cams in a small port head/
    By pete05 in forum Tech and Conversions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 24-05-2008, 08:55 PM
  3. Big port cams in a small port motor
    By Evan in forum Tech and Conversions
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 19-06-2007, 11:25 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •