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Thread: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

  1. #1
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    ****Please dont start harping on about how I should drop the 4A and put in a 3S-GTE/2ZZ-GE/1GZ-FE/Your mum's 1200HP hyundai excel motor. Make a useful contribution or GTFO. I already know this is pushing the envelope for a 4A so I dont need you telling me what everyone already knows.****

    Now, my problem is I am being quite "optimistic" with my power goals. I want to (eventually) squeeze my 4A as close to 300rwkw as possible (on E85), but for it to be useful on the track it needs to be making decent power by at least 5000rpm, although 4500ish would be much better.... which is a big ask. I think it's possible but it makes turbocharger selection a right kent!!!

    I did some calculations the other day with the following assumptions

    HP target = 400
    Rev limit = 8500rpm
    Expected peak power = 8500rpm
    BSFC = 0.55
    Peak power VE = 87%
    Full boost = 4500rpm
    Minimum boost = 3500rpm
    Atmospheric pressure = 14.7psi
    intercooler pressure loss = 1.7psi

    Plugging these figures into the power/pressure formula nets around 32psi of boost and 44lb/min of air at peak power, give or take a bit depending on how i fiddle with various values. These are of course just guide figures...

    Anywho, plotting that on some compressor maps using the squirrel performance website gives me the following
    http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/...57&map_sel4=60

    The first two are the same maps as used on the turbonetics T3/T04E range of turbos




    And the rest are Garrett units




    GTX Series, anti surge compressor cover. No plot, but just overlay the lines on the above maps in your head/on the screen with a ruler or something



    All of them go well outside the surge line at some point which is not a good thing...Anyways I know these internet calculators are not necessarily all that accurate, so I was hoping someone more experienced in turbo selection can help me out here. Most of the people Ive spoken to recommend something around a GT3071R to GT3076R size. The exhaust will be externally gated using my tial MVS 38, so from what I understand this should allow me to use a smaller AR exhaust housing (maybe even down to something like a 0.48AR?) than normal to get the turbo to spool harder without worrying so much about the housing restricting top end power due to the much better flow of an external gate compared to an internal gate. Someone correct me if im wrong here...
    Last edited by trdee; 27-03-2012 at 10:25 PM.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  2. #2
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    if your going to run 25+psi then look at the gtx units. as far as i can tell this is the only reason for them and is where they eclipse the gt series.

    they're designe for better efficiency in the higher boost pressures. gtx3071 maybe with twin scroll housing?

  3. #3
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Anyway, analysing the above, I think its safe to say that the assumption of full boost at 4500rpm is simply not going to happen. 6000rpm looks like a much more viable target, which I guess is something i will have to live with?

    I forgot to mention that ideally, the engine will also run on petrol, at up to 25psi.

    Jonathan; hadnt looked at the GTX series. This may be the go. It looks like I will need one of those anti surge compressor covers if i want half a chance of getting anywhere near these kind of figures.

    Edit; now including comp map for a GTX3071R and GT3076R in the above post
    Last edited by trdee; 25-03-2012 at 11:52 AM.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  4. #4
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    or the little gtx2863. heres gt2860vs gtx2863 and gt2860 is rated at 350hp, but theres the step up also to gtx2867 which is supposed to get the same as the ol gt3071 so add more boost maybe just get 400hp?

  5. #5
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Selection for petrol (or just revising down the power goals for E85) is much easier. Assuming max boost limit of around 24-25psi at 5000rpm I get somewhere in the vicinity of 340HP, and the map for the GT3071R suits it perfectly





    I think the thing that is screwing my E85 maps is the boost. I cant get that much boost happening at those RPMs, the compressors wont take it, and tbh the 4A probably doesnt have it in it to generate that much boost at those rpms anyway without nitrous or some other shenanigary, maybe a 7A bottom end would...
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  6. #6
    Is a Chief Engine Builder wilbo666's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Some thoughts,

    I don't have any experience with NOS but perhaps one could look at using NOS to make up for the inevitable (in my thoughts ) fact that you won't have full boot by 4500rpm

    Again another thing I haven't personally looked into but what about looking into compound charging (with two turbos)...

    Also how does the 3076 look with a larger rear AR? 0.6 seems low for your power goal?



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    Wilbo
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  7. #7
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota RONA's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    NOS is useless on a circuit/hill climb though as it is not allowed under CAMS regs. Doubt this thing will see WSID too often, just run anti-lag and make your turbo a consumable item.
    If in doubt power out

  8. #8
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Ive been trying multiple permutations with different rpms, power aims, boost levels and compressor maps and what i think i can conclude is i can make around 340HP or so fairly easily, but if i want to push it to 400 on E85 then I will simply have to accept that it wont be making full boost till 6ish and be super peaky and difficult to drive in that configuration. The turbochargers arent flexible enough to allow much more leeway either way, and the 4A probably wont be able to generate that kinda boost anyway without some form of "artificial" assistance
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  9. #9
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Quote Originally Posted by trdee View Post
    I dont need power below 4500rpm anyway dneg. This isnt a street car.
    I know but if you somehow fall under it your fucked, will you be playing with the gear ratios in the box?
    Maybe look at one of those TRD gearsets, top speed is about 190km/h at 8000rpm in 5th I think so it still has some legs.

    A dirty bit nitrous shot would be ideal though, cheap, easy and safe when you tune it in with an additional injector lol

  10. #10
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota RONA's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    That gearset would be useless on anything but track likes Winton & Wakefield though.
    If in doubt power out

  11. #11
    Toymods Events Secretary Too Much Toyota trdee's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    190 is nowhere near enough.

    And if i fall under 4500rpm, I am in the wrong gear I'm currently making full boost at 5300rpm with a rev limit of 7750 and it is only juuuust out of the powerband coming out of turn 2 and 10 at wakefield, everywhere else it's fine. 8500rpm and full boost at 4500/5000 will be fine.
    1988 AW11 9A-GTE - Turbo Missile | 2004 Elise K20A - N/A Screamer | 1984 MA61 1JZ-GTE - 80s cruiser
    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Kelway View Post
    .....and the within first laps everything that made the AW11 great hit Rex as if the 'Gods of driving fun' had all Jizzed on his face.....
    Quote Originally Posted by JustenGT8 View Post
    Mono blocs mate....as close to yours as a Ferrari is to a Fiesta

  12. #12
    Is a Chief Engine Builder wilbo666's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Another outside the box thought, what about making it a hybrid - have say a 50kw continuous rating electrical motor (which would be capable of more power for shorter time periods) thrown into the system

    Think of it as "turbo on demand"...?



    Cheers
    Wilbo
    Wilbo's Wiki (Includes 2JZ-GTE Wiring, etc! )

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  13. #13
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota dnegative's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    Quote Originally Posted by RONA View Post
    That gearset would be useless on anything but track likes Winton & Wakefield though.
    True, you would get halfway down the straight and be bouncing off the limiter. Lowering the diff ratio would be the solution though.

    Brings up another matter, how much shit can a E series box take?

  14. #14
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    do you want 30psi@4500rpm? would be quite hard to control no?

    altho you may not get full boost it'll still be spooling and giving decent up and go.

  15. #15
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: 300RWKW 4AGTE Turbocharger Selection

    what abotu the BW(?) turbos? (ask Justen)
    supposed to be more efficient than Garretts...
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