r154 wont select gears unless you tap reverse first.

[caibs]

odd situation.

installed new clutch, worked fine for just over a thousand k's.
then one morning it wont select gears. it went into reverse but then went stubborn.

now, same issue, but i've figured out you can select a gear as long as you tap it into reverse first.

i've removed the master and had it checked. it is new and in perfect working order. the slave is moving fluid too. clutch plates are free on the input spline.

also, i had a marlin crawler thrust washer, bearing plate and selector fork installed while waiting for the clutch to arrive.

will ring the gearbox shop and quiz them tomorrow, until then does anyone have any ideas?

[Ken_T]

Does the car creep forward in gear when you have your foot on the clutch? ie, is the clutch fully disengaging?

[4th surf]

If it were a pre-load issue then you'd have had this from day one. Depending on what Bellhousing/clutch set up you are running (and Dellows are bad for this) Kens' question about clutch disengaging is very valid. OK I run an R150 behind a 1UZ in a Surf. Being a 4wd and no dust covers on the Dellows cr@p you go for a play off road and wash everything down and you end up with a "Sometimes clutch" and by that I mean a clutch that sometimes does what it should but most of the time doesn't. More for engaging gears after it's been sitting for a while, so the type of lube used on the input shaft can come into question there, usually a high quality molybdenum grease is what you should use and not any kind of anti-seize. I will add that my issue with the Dellows setup is that as it turns out their bell is 9mm shorter than the stock toyota bells. I use the KSracing bells now on all 1UZ into Hilux 4wd conversions with no issues at all

But if the problem is only first thing in the morning in the last week or so (mileage done aside and esp now that it is starting to get a little fresh in the mornings) too heavy an oil may be in the box and it's "Baulking up".. By this I mean that the sychros are sticking so you aint going to get any gear other than reverse until you can get things moving and freed up. Like you say give reverse a tap and off you go. So ask what oil is in the box and if it's anything other than Castrol VMX80 change it to that as it really is the ducks nuts for any Toyota 5speed. Thinking of this a client of mine a couple of years back put redline oil into his R150 and no matter what you did you couldn't downshift to 2nd, yeah fine the box was a bit worn but when I stripped it the oil had litterally glued the sychro cone to 2nd.

Bit of food for thought

[Ken_T]

Yeah, I wanted to figure out whether the problem was inside the trans or outside hence the clutch question.

surf, do you know whether it was shockproof or not? I know shockproof is bad for syncho's but people swear by mt90. VMX80 is good stuff, biggo swears by it.
Off topic but do you know the strength of the R150 compared to an R154?

[caibs]

hmm thanks for the reply mate. i'll elaborate

the bellhousing is standard toyota jz bellhousing
clutch is an rps carbon/carbon twin plate with supplied/balanced flywheel
oil is castrol of some sort, i went to tristan at wtf auto for this oil, he swears by it and thats good enough for me.

as far as i'm aware, the car doesn't creep with the pedal engaged but i'll give it another crack tommorow to make sure. i literally reversed out, put her in first, got a few meters and realised there was an issue and pushed her back in so as not to damage anything. when the pedal is pressed, you can hear the twin plate rattle, and you can see a mm or so between the plates through the viewing hole. im not sure just how much the plates are meant to seperate though i never looked at the gap when it was working properly.

the one thing you've mentioned however, the installation guide recommended antisieze on the input splines and inner throwout bearing recess. every other clutch i've ever done i've used grease but i thought i'd follow their instructions considering it is such an expensive peice of equiptment i'd be better off following their recommendations.
could you explain to me what the issue is with using anti-seize?
i remember speaking to jim berry a while back in regard to my old car, he strongly recommended using graphite powder instead of grease. i've never personally had an issue with grease. i should've just stuck with it i guess.

[4th surf]

Well it has to be one of the two. If it were every time after it had been sitting for a while then I'd say clutch but in the morning I say oil. Yet still you have to eliminate everything.

Yes he'd put shockproof in it. It really looked like a smurf had shat in the thing too. Rule here is mt90 for race car and VMX80 for daily or mostly road drive.

R150/151/154 are the same box for all intensive purposes. Ratios differ and also the length of input and main shafts depending on application. H series (80 or 100 series 'Cruiser) uses the same housings but different internals and tends to go bang quite often

[caibs]

it happens every time you start it. i've started it in the afternoon several times now to see if its still happening after various tweaks like adjusting the master cyl for more throw.

basically;
start the car in neutral, press clutch, wont select gears, may go into reverse.

after gone into reverse, it will go into other gears for as long as the clutch is kept in.

however, put it back in to neutral and let the clutch out, then in again and it puts you back to square one. no gear engagement until you tap reverse.

[4th surf]

hmm thanks for the reply mate. i'll elaborate

the bellhousing is standard toyota jz bellhousing
clutch is an rps carbon/carbon twin plate with supplied/balanced flywheel
oil is castrol of some sort, i went to tristan at wtf auto for this oil, he swears by it and thats good enough for me.

as far as i'm aware, the car doesn't creep with the pedal engaged but i'll give it another crack tommorow to make sure. i literally reversed out, put her in first, got a few meters and realised there was an issue and pushed her back in so as not to damage anything. when the pedal is pressed, you can hear the twin plate rattle, and you can see a mm or so between the plates through the viewing hole. im not sure just how much the plates are meant to seperate though i never looked at the gap when it was working properly.

the one thing you've mentioned however, the installation guide recommended antisieze on the input splines and inner throwout bearing recess. every other clutch i've ever done i've used grease but i thought i'd follow their instructions considering it is such an expensive peice of equiptment i'd be better off following their recommendations.
could you explain to me what the issue is with using anti-seize?
i remember speaking to jim berry a while back in regard to my old car, he strongly recommended using graphite powder instead of grease. i've never personally had an issue with grease. i should've just stuck with it i guess.

Anti-seize isn't a lubricant, any moisture and it turns into a paste so probably hence your problem. It's to keep threads from seizing (i.e the threads corroding together). Lucky that you've only got an R series box to pull out and not a road ranger as I used to work with a guy that liked to use anti-seize on clutch splines, invariably they'd be back within a week on a tow wagon with a very angry truckie in hot pursuit..

While I don't know Tristan personally odds on the oil in the box will be VMX as I know a lot of peeps that know him or deal with him and he recomends the same as I do. I work in a different market to him so our paths don't really cross

[4th surf]

it happens every time you start it. i've started it in the afternoon several times now to see if its still happening after various tweaks like adjusting the master cyl for more throw.

basically;
start the car in neutral, press clutch, wont select gears, may go into reverse.

after gone into reverse, it will go into other gears for as long as the clutch is kept in.

however, put it back in to neutral and let the clutch out, then in again and it puts you back to square one. no gear engagement until you tap reverse.

Well we can eliminate this to a clutch issue then and be careful playing with the push rod. Giz a holler if you want some help

[caibs]

i'll pull her out on the weekend clean up the anti seize and throw in some grease mate.
any other suggestions are more than welcome.

i appreciate the help cheers!

[BlackSupra]

Are you running a push/pull convertor for your clutch?

I had a similar problem with my R154 when I snapped a mount for the pivot of the convertor inside the bellhousing.

[dnegative]

Pretty odd issue to have, you should be able to select gear/gears with the engine off without to much issue assuming you dont have the wrong oil. Even then you can normally still do it as there is always a gear kinda close enough for the balk ring and hub to line up. I cant really see why selecting reverse would resolve the issue though? All it does is move an idler gear into place.


Let us know what you find?

If your clutch was dragging reverse would grind and crunch like a ****. Sounds like a selector fault of some sorts.

[caibs]

no converter, its designed to retain the factory fork.

you can select gears when its off, but 3rd and 4th are quite difficult to get in to. before the issue, you could select any gear while it was off no worries.

spoke to the gearbox shop today, they seemed to think it was a clutch issue or possibly a spigot bearing fault.

beats the hell out of me. weirdest thing i've come across.

[caibs]

ok so i took it for a short drive to see if i could figure out any more symptoms.

once you get it in first, and get the car rolling it will drive reasonably fine. the gears are slightly notchy but no grinding or funky noises.
you can select any gear, as long as you dont go back into neutral. once it is in neutral, you need to tap reverse or occasionally 3rd and it will let you select gears again.

this makes me think it is definately an issue with the gearbox. dnegative maybe you're right about the selector fault. i cant imagine it would be the clutch with these symptoms anyway.

will take it to the gearbox shop tomorrow i guess, show them first hand and see what they say.

[greg]

I have the same problem with my 154. I am using a single plate Exceedy race clutch and lubed the spline with graphite,box is filled with Red Line MTL a fully synthetic which came highly recommended .I only have to touch the reverse gate and the box wil then go into 1st without a problem. at the nationals over Easter while talking car shit two guys that have 154's told me this was quite common.I am about to remove my box and put a kit through it as I think its a gearbox prob not clutch.please let me know if you find differently.
Cheers Greg.