E-series transmission interchangeability

[jonathan yee]

not sure about the diesel rav4's but S boxes are attached to 4cyl camry's, celica's and NA mr2's. all the V6 camry's and turbo mr2's got E boxes.

the S boxes has been used by many for FWD turbo celica's with varying degrees of success. i would not recommend attaching it to a 7MGTE.

it's doesn't matter what car it's in but what engine it's attached too.

[TheRisingSunset]

Apparently the second generation wide-body Camry (VX20) from 1996 to 2001 used the S51 5-speed manual, including the TRD V6. So how fragile can the S-series be?

I repeat: the E-series remains my first choice.

Also, it's not just the size of the engine, actually - the size of the load/resistance also matters. The Camry, being much heavier than a Corolla, required a heavier transmission. The Rav4, having more mass, bigger wheels and AWD, required something heavier still, which is why (or so it would seem) it uses a much different transmission to the Camry. (The Rav4 and Camry did share automatics, though. U-series. Not too surprising, as they shared engines.)

[jonathan yee]

sxv20 is 5sfe 2.2l NA 4cyl...?

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/q_J_199...MRY_SXV20.html

[TheRisingSunset]

It also had the 1MZ-FE 3.0 lt V6, also with manual transmission as I understand it. Quoting Wikipedia (although they may not be 100% correct - me neither) "Power was increased slightly to 133 hp (99 kW) SAE for the 5S-FE 2.2 L I4 and 192 hp (143 kW) SAE for the 1MZ-FE V6. Manual transmissions (model: S51) were only available on the CE trim level, LE V6, and any Solara model."

[terryo]

i seriously doubt this claim about V6. the V6 clutch rubs on the inside. I've tried !!
Many of the recent RAV vehicles use a lightened version of the E box. They have terrible problems with 5th gear. I've fixed numerous
I have numerous E code boxes to sell, but PM me if interested as i run a business and this is not the place to conduct work

[knightrous]

There are a couple of Supercharged 1MZ powered MR2's in the UK running the S54 gearbox without problems.
Similar situation is with the 4AGZE's that run the C52/C56/C60 gearbox combo instead of the E51/E58 gearboxes. Everyone says the C series is no good for power, but there are cars out their running them and have no issues.

I assume its more of a case of how you drive it and what condition the gearbox is in more then "X gearbox will break behind Y motor"

[terryo]

i've got a workshop full of dead Toyota gearboxes, so this is 1st hand experience. in the main, they are rooted becuase of high powered engines in front of them, being driven abnormally "hard". drag racing type starts or burn-outs/donuts with 1 wheel spinning, is the fastest way to kill any of them.

The C code boxes are the weakest by a long shot, and when people fit high torque engines, they typically break 3rd gear . i have seen them shattered and with zero teeth on them when mated to turbo or supercharged 2ZZ's. Behind a stock 4AG, they are generally very reliable. However overloaded bearings and damaged shafts are common with vigorously driven 2ZZ's (NA engines), so this you an idea of their capacity. This is the main reason why Lotus Exige owners are swapping to E code boxes.

The S code box has marginally better torque capacity but clutch fitment inside the bellhousing is problematic. most of the common "good" clutches just dont fit unless you make a custom flywheel what is thinner and spaces the pressure plate away from the ribs inside the bellhousing. A few people have used S code boxes with 3SGTE's (Celica ST184 conversion commonly) and they typically fail with bearing collapse when driven vigorously. Until we did some radical mods, we regularly broke diff gears and stub axles when used in a race NA 3SG. Driven like a granny, they seem perfectly OK

The E code box is the stongest by far, and only extreme power engines kills them, unless the driver is "stupid". The early "wide" versions are almost an overkill behind a 4 cyl 4AGZE or 2ZZ, but the later narrow versions are definintely not as tough. The latest RAV 4cyl models have lots of problems with them, especially 3rd, 4th & 5th gears and hubs failing. Apart from the Avensis diesel box used in the lotus Evora, I believe Toyota has stopped selling the manual V6 in their various models, because they dont really have a box with adequate torque capacity for a long and trouble-free life, and their autos are now so good.

[TheRisingSunset]

No, sure, I agree that any gearbox can be destroyed. I even considered a C50, because it would allow a starter on either side of the engine, until I found one and noticed the teeny tiny input shaft. And I know that the E-series input shaft shares its dimensions with the R-series RWD 'boxes - also its clutch plate on some models.

If it weren't a 6-spd and so bloody expensive, I might have looked at the Avensis turbodiesel 'box. But that is a 3-shaft design if I'm not mistaken, and might be too wide for my crazy application. Its gears are too short compared to the 5-spds I quoted, which for me means too many gear shifts between any two speeds. Perfect for a diesel, I suppose great for a track car, but not for me.

I've seen 21R 'boxes behind V8s, V6s and all other kinds of tuned engine. But I've also seen 21Rs falling apart despite being mated to the original 3Y engines.

Thanks for the info.

[TheRisingSunset]

FWIW, people over here don't really think too highly of the latest crop of Toyota FWD 'boxes. Including the ones used by Lotus.

[worldwalker]

From the several different models I've viewed, the E153 ("V6 model") is available on all 1MZ powered Camry's; unless of course, the car build plates are false. From what I've been told, 3VZ Camry's had 2 variants, but I've only seen models with the E53.

None of the 4Cyl camry's I've viewed (dozens at the wreckers/auctions) have E series boxes. They all have either S51 or later models with S53 boxes. The only difference weight wise would be the engine/box combo which, if the comparison is like v6/4cyl conversions, is about 60kg's. The trim differences were regardless of power plant.

[TheRisingSunset]

i've got a workshop full of dead Toyota gearboxes...

Say, terryo, do you have pics of some of the dead 'boxes? I would like to see what the E-series and S-series look like, since the E-series was so rare here. Shafts, splines, gears, engine-side bolt patterns, split surface bolt patterns, identifying numbers, etc. I'm certain I won't be the only one to appreciate this.

I'm a hungry info-monster!

[PrettyCoolWagon]

Having read his article a couple of times I'd like to hear Terry's initial thoughts on the late model camry's E series 6 speed in an AE95 running a 7AGZE bigport engine?

Both being narrow boxes, I'm keen to learn if it's possible to mix n match gears in a fashion that uses the AE95 4wd wagons very low 1st gear with over sized wheels ( and suspension lift) as a low range gear. Then there'd still be 5 gears left to use on the street...
So in effect 2nd gear would become my 1st gear for street use..

Any thoughts?

[terryo]

sorry, but i dont have time to take random pictures of gearboxes. if you have 1 or 2 specific questions, i'll happily answer them

i cant yet advise on all the swaps possible with the late camry 6 speed, as they are are so new and limited experience to date. in general, there is limited capacity to mix and match in late model narrow E codes boxes. bearing sizes changed compared with the really early boxes, so limited choice of gears. The 5 speed RAV's have very low diff ratios so thats the one to use for race use or with real big wheels

I'll update my article when i get time

Terry

[TheRisingSunset]

Isn't the latest 6-speeds called the AE-series? And I'm guessing they're 3-shaft designs, not 2-shaft like the E-series and S-series?

[PrettyCoolWagon]

As far as I know they're EA series, not the other way round..

So.. just mate up the whole Rav4 5spd instead of trying to mix n match internals from an early E-series?
I've read several articles stating there were a lot of rav4 transmission problems between 2001 and 2006. Any ideas which series Rav4 box would be the pick of the bunch?

I'm still investigating the C-series boxes as an option. Like Knightrous and Terry initially stated, Yes the E's are stronger but driving style must be considered too. My 7agze will make around 200kw and I won't drive like a crazy street, drift or dragster....
But..
Off-road with oversize wheels the C-series would definitely need a low ratio and could otherwise be put to the test..
Just how much torque can a C-series handle?