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Thread: 4AGE / 7AGE not making power

  1. #1
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default 4AGE / 7AGE not making power

    I'm out of ideas, so here it is.

    I have had TWO motor setups in my car - both 7AGE 20V's - both use fairly similar components, the main differences being that the second setup uses larger cams, upgraded valve-springs, and uses an adaptronic instead of a stock ECU with SAFC.

    The dyno graph below is the first setup (i actually made 10hp more after tuning, but i didn't have that sheet):

    STOCK ECU with SAFC
    7A bottom-end, 10.6:1 compression
    Stock blacktop head
    TODA 264 degree/9mm camshafts (with VVT pulley, stock exhaust cam pulley)
    Valve clearances were WAY too tight on this setup. Compression test was about ~150psi across the board.



    The second graph is my current setup, tuned by a "well respected" tuner who shall currently stay nameless:

    Adaptronic ECU, stock injectors etc.
    7A bottom-end, 10.6:1 compression
    Stock blacktop head
    Kelford 194C's - 284 degree/9.3mm intake, 278 degree/8.5mm exhaust (with VVT pulley, but an adjustable exhaust cam pulley)
    Valve clearances were sorted on this setup as per kelford's advice. Compression test is about ~140psi across the board.



    Both setups have the same headers/exhaust setup (1.5" pipes, 4-1 design, equal length - going into a 2.5" exhaust). I do not run a cat. Both setups also use open throttles, with 70mm long trumpets. I have replaced the fuel pump etc and do not have a fuel pressure problem.

    One thing that is interesting - the car ran quite lean (most would probably say dangerously lean) with the stock ECU, but i never had a problem with anything in the engine bay getting hot. With the new setup, and about 3 hours on the dyno=, i now have a melted VVT plug, my headers are a different colour, and my washer-bottle is farked. I am not blaming the tuner in any way (yet), but it is strange..





    Anyway, has anyone got any ideas? I actually thought i would be disappointed with anything less than 160hp, so this is a fair kick in the head. I am mostly suspect about either the tune, or the compression (140-150psi - i know large-duration cams can affect this result - but this much??). It's also really weird that the power-curve flattens out on both setups around 6k, i would've thought they'd keep making power well past that.

    Anyway, i think that's it - If i have forgotten any important details or anything, just ask, and i shall answer as best i can
    Last edited by river; 22-08-2011 at 12:55 PM. Reason: Renamed properly for Tech Threads and brought back from the deleted pile

  2. #2
    busy adding lightness Too Much Toyota MR22ZZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    Injectors maxing out?

    Also, plastic next to a how exhaust = bad in anyones books, I'd be switching that coolant to a better position ASAP or put some shielding in place.
    Past Toyotas - Snow White (TA23), Blue Stivo (ZZE123)
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  3. #3
    Building Corollas Chief Engine Builder Cuzzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    Def need shielding................
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    Quote Originally Posted by -GT- View Post
    You had an oil and plastics engine bay fire, with flames that reached at least to the roof - of course shit got hot, it wasn't burning jiffy firelighters back there.

  4. #4
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    It's a washer bottle. And yes i will look into making heat shields (for both). But that's kinda the last thing i'm worried about at the moment.

    Injectors are nowhere near maxing out, 20V's have pretty decent sized ones that are good for 200+hp.

  5. #5
    Forum Sponsor Domestic Engineer Bazda's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    Were these done on the same dyno?

    We are seeing in the 120kw atw range on the 4ages in NZ. Thats with much higher compression though in the 11s.
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  6. #6
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    fuel pump/filter/lines? odd to see power flatten out for 1500rpm..
    what is duty cycle of injectors, and what happens to the fuel pressure, when the power goes flat?
    edit: forget that, didn't see AFR's on graph
    Last edited by oldcorollas; 21-08-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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  7. #7
    Bull now in china shop! Domestic Engineer NME308's Avatar
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    Hi there mate,
    Sounds like you have all the right ingredients in the mixing pot...

    What is the ignition system on this little creature? Would I be right in assuming it probably has been changed in between engines? I ask as a weak ignition will limit power and allow burning mixture through the headers and turn them into plastic melting devices at several paces! In my definition of weak ignition it could be coils, ignitors, wiring, or ecu i.e. wrong dwell or fire edge. Weak ignition can also be responsible for a somewhat lean looking mixture as the sensor cant read unburnt gasoline.
    I have found quite a lot of power in skylines of my mates purely by advising them to unplug and clean each and every connector they can see in the engine bay. Also while at it to remove every earth point and clean the block/bolt/panel and make it shiney before re attaching. Does your car have plenty of earth/ground connections? I use one to the block, one to a starter motor bolt, one to the head - the head doesn't necessarily earth decently through the block, and of course another to the chassis rail at minimum. To clarify my statement about finding power the cars seemed to run ok but had the typical skyling stumble ephisodes when trying to come up on boost and the above made a huge improvment.


    Thats just my first 2 cents worth!


    Hope you can fine the answers you seek!

    Hmmm just a note on compression there is approximatly 3% increase in power available (assuming no other mods) for each point of compression an engine is raised. My point is your power goal and power currently will not be reconciled by an achievable increase in compression!

    Cheers,
    Jason
    3TC Compound Turbo 1976 TA23 - Members Ride Thread HERE
    479RWHP on 50psi and 70psi hasn't broken her at the track!

  8. #8
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: What have i done wrong? Why do i make so little power?

    BAZDA: Yeah same with the US guys, they're all getting 160+ hp with similar types of setups (and less displacement). They weren't done on the same dyno unfortunately, but the same brand of dyno (dyno dynamics, and in shootout mode), don't know if that counts for much.

    oldcorollas: Fuel pump is a 255l walbro, filter is new, lines are stock JDM thingos. I don't remember there being any fuel pressure drop through the entire dyno run. I don't know what the duty cycle of the injectors is, but 20V injectors are pretty massive (for what they are), so shouldn't be anywhere near maxing out.

    NME308: Wow! The ignition is still pretty much the same between the two engine setups - individual 1ZZFE coils. I did a dodgy DLI setup with the stock setup, which meant the coils were running dual wasted spark(!) - the adaptronic should now have it running as totally individual coils now, but that's not something i checked or even asked about! I have a brand-new loom, and i made sure every plug and connector is cleaned. I only have one thick ground going from the block to the chassis - that's interesting about the head not earthing - as i have my ECU grounds all attached to my vacuum rail! I will make sure to add more grounds asap.

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