Just rebuilt 4age using excessive oil, Rings didn't Bed?

[wiso]

Hi,

I recently rebuilt a 4age not my first but the first time I have had this issue. the first 500kms I was generally just driving the car normally, after that i was reving it out a bit more. I don't think the rings have bedded properly. Right now the car has done 5000kms since the rebuild.up until about the 3-4000km mark the engine was using about 1L of oil every 1000km, but now it looks to be using 1L in about 700km.

Basically i know there is no way to fix this now without pulling the engine down again. (well just head off, sump off, pistons out) What I would like to know is what could could be the cause and what i would need to replace. I have been reading lately that mostly this is caused by either incorrect ring install, or the cylinder walls have glazed. some people have said in this event you can re-hone the cylinders and use the same rings? is this correct or would I really be better off re-ring the pistons as well?

I plan to do this over my christmas break so I need to get all parts in advance

Apart from the oil use the Engine has 185psi even on all cylinders, and blows no smoke, until over 6k rpm and its black look more like overfueling. doesn't bog down.

What do people think, would this be a bad bed, would it be the cylinder walls, or rings?

[KENut]

Yep with low kms like this you can just give the bores a light hone and use the same rings.

What oil?

Its not the pcv or cam covers filling up?

Maybe do a leakdown test. You installed the rings 180 degrees apart etc?

[mattysshop]

how did you hone it originally?

16v 4age's do not run a PCV... just a breather in the cam cover linked straight to the inlet manifold...

did you modify the cam cover baffles? or add breathers?

[MWP]

16v 4age's do not run a PCV... just a breather in the cam cover linked straight to the inlet manifold...

You sure about that??
Engines without a PCV normally vent to between the air filter and TB.
Engines with PCV vent to the intake manifold.

[mattysshop]

You sure about that??
Engines without a PCV normally vent to between the air filter and TB.
Engines with PCV vent to the intake manifold.

yep,

just gave this smallport a quick once over... you can see the inlet side cam cover is just a 8mm steel fitting in the alloy.. that has about 8" of hose that goes directly to the inlet manifold.. no pcv/one way valves it's all just open.. bigport and smallport 4age's, and GZE have this same cam cover design, but the GZE goes pre throttle into the air intake..

20v's run a PCV

[TERRA Operative]

re hone it and bed the engine in properly, ie. Give it a hiding through the hills. There is another thread about bedding in with an awesome link. Basically, driving easy for the first 500kms is the worst thing you can do, as this is where 80% of the bedding in occurs.
Load up the engine then engine brake. Alternate between the two and you'll have a properly bedded in engine with almost no blowby.

[wiso]

Ken, some cheap shit mineral SAE30 oil was used for the first 1000km, since then i have switched to 20w-50 cheap shit mineral.

I installed the rings as per the instructions, all joins opposite corners, dots up, bevels up.

Matty, I didn't hone it, I had the shop do all the work on the block, this time though I will buy a honing tool as i am not taking the engine out to redo this. do it all in car.

No added breathers, didn't modify any baffles. matty is right there are not PCV's on 4age's

Terra, yes unfortunaly when you rebuild the engine you have 2 things working against each other. the rings require A good hiding to bed in, Hi RPM and lots of Load, but bearings require easy running in the first few hundred kms as thats when they are most prone to slipping.

But now that the bearings are worn in when i re do these cylinders I can give it a hiding.


Forgot to mention Rings are chrome moly rings, would these still be good to reuse? I have been told these are harder and take longer to bed, so hopefully they haven't worn too much

[trd_st184]

For what its worth I would recommend getting a new set of rings. Get the block rehoned and put some decent mineral oil in.

I hear that the first 50km are the most crucial for proper bedding in, I would think that load would be equally as important as higher rpm, but at the same time you wouldn't want to load up the bearings up too much at first.

You will always hear the 'right' and 'wrong' way of bedding in, some people swear by some methods.

[Grega]

but the GZE goes pre throttle into the air intake..

actually all 4AGEs do this with the oil breather - if you look in the inlet manifold there is a channel whereby the air flows to the back of the throttle body and to the otherside of the butterfly valve.....
its a common thing ppl get wrong (i did) when converting from FWD to RWD manifolds ie cut and shut

[dangdang]

This is the link I originally posted on the other thread

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Based on bikes but its exactly the same theory for cars

[TERRA Operative]

Yea, that's the link. the key isn't revs, but cylinder pressure (which I guess loads up the bearings too) but if your oiling system is up to par and you have the clearances right, there shouldn't be much problem.
Just let it warm up properly before you go for it.

I also take the chance to install a magnetic sump plug to help catch any debris and prevent it going through the oil pump. It does help, my brothers Sera (5EFHE) had some junk on the magnet after the break in preriod.

[oldeskewltoy]

Honing CAN'T be done in the car.... you don't want to hone the cylinders with any internals parts near... you'll just contaminate everything.



Have you ever heard of break-in oil???







BR-30 Break-In Oil
Viscosity typical of SAE 5W-30.



Product Features:


•Same formula as original BR in a SAE 10W-30 viscosity.
•Petroleum oil provides the highest levels of zinc and phosphorus for flat-tappet engines.
•Additive package promotes ring seal and provides maximum protection available for cams and lifters during initial break-in.
•Requires no additional additives.
•Good for tight clearance and/or low temperature break-in
•Compatible with methanol and high-octane race fuels.


Applications/Instructions:

•Specifically designed for breaking in engines and flat tappet camshafts and lifters
•Good for tight clearance and/or low temperature break-in
•Good for restrictor plate engines, drag race engines, and OEM rebuilds
•Combined with Joe Gibbs Driven Engine Assembly Grease, BR30 provides the highest levels of protection for camshafts, lifters, wrist pins, distributor gears, push rods and valve retainers

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/pro...akin/br30.html

[dangdang]

We dropped the Joe Gibbs into my bosses rebuilt gen3 (out of an vz R8 and into a HZ ute )

I've also used their gearbox oils, great stuff but $$$ probably worth it considering the investment a rebuild is though.

Penrite mineral run in is also good as this is what I have also used previously with no issues.

[wiso]

I have previously used penrite run in oil, but couldn't find it this time. I used burson's running in oil., as I said, cheap shit SAE30

[Casey-G]

I used penrite run in in mine, then a fuchs 15W mineral oil.. then its getting penrite full syn.. must bed the the rings in though, i had tremendous amounts of blow by oil into my catch can until about 500km saw the amount begin to less (and boost ramped up a little )