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Thread: GZE Questions

  1. #1
    Junior Member Grease Monkey rick q's Avatar
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    Default GZE Questions

    First post - so be gentle with me .....

    I'm looking to upgrade from the smallport 100kW 4AGE in my Clubman to a late MAP 4AGZE.

    Firstly, how do they stand up to running flat out for extended periods of time (15-20 minutes circuit time - mostly full throttle / full brakes). I read somewhere that the s/c overheats with extended use.

    Secondly, because of space limitations, I can't use the standard GZE intake manifold / plumbing arrangement. Standard has the throttle body before the s/charger. I am hoping to use a smallport intake plenum so that airflow is :- filter - s/c - ABV - throttle body - manifold.

    Has anyone here done this (smallport manifold with throttle body after the s/c) and can it be done with the standard computer.

    Thanks in advance

    Rick Jones

  2. #2
    Junior Member Carport Converter 4agte's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    i would speak to either nick parker or ben wilson (thats their nicks on toymods) ben and nick have both messed arround with using the n/a manifolds and different throttle bodys as for the track ive had no issues with mine altho i probably wouldnt know what would happen if the s/c overheated untill it did. The only problem ive had is with the belt slipping and others have blown their blocked abv's apart from that mine surrvived a whole day at wakefield and still made 8 psi every day after that

  3. #3
    tilting at windmills Carport Converter Ben Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    We looked at getting one to fit in a mates Westfield. It could be done but it was going to be ugly. The big problem is the supercharger sits on the lower right hand side of the engine, exactly where the steering column is.

    Unless you're willing to have a steering column which looks like a mechano set, you're not going to get a standard supercharger in there.

    A custom turbo setup would be a lot easier to get to work in a clubbie.

    In answer to your other question, you can run the TB after the SC, you just need a decent size BOV (I'm using a turbosmart plumback in mine).

  4. #4
    Junior Member Grease Monkey rick q's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Ben,

    The engine is significantly over to the passengers side (Fraser Clubman) and I have about 190mm from the block to the steering column (measured the same area on a GZE and the widest part was 170 so it should fit there) That same bias to the passengers side makes it too tight for a turbo to live there - besides I like the thought of the instantaneous torque a s/c should give compared to a turbo.

    By suggesting a BOV, does this mean the the ABV can be omitted. For that to work, the engine must draw air through the s/c (when inactive) - i.e. when the s/c isn't engaged, the engine draws air in through the freewheeling s/c ? That would make life pretty simple ! Can this all be done on the std ECU?

    Cheers ..... Rick Jones

  5. #5
    Estranged Member Chief Engine Builder mullett's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Yes, the standard ECU will run quite happily with the ABV removed, I've had a plate over mine for months now. Nick Parkers setup runs with the bigport intake manifold and an aftermarket bypass valve to make the off-SC drive much nicer, and it seems to work really well. That is with custom managment though (which I highly recommend). It seems like running the TB after the SC works very well too, but as mentioned earlier you will need a decent sized venting valve to stop the throttle being blown apart by the SC when closed. This will mess with your ECU as well.

    If you're going to go to all the trouble, I'd suggest getting an SC14, aftermarket managment, and arrange some sort of good cooler (water to air if you can't fit a front mount) This should give you at least 150-160rwhp, and insane torque....

    RM.

  6. #6
    ToyotaCarClub.net Domestic Engineer Starfire's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    With a standard crank and supercharger pulley the 4AGZE should be able to sit at redline all day and love it

    The supercharger can start to melt stuff if you keep it above 10000 rpm for an extended period of time.

    The stock ratio is 1.21:1 (on a smallport map model) and redline is 7500 or so giving a supercharger speed of 8700 rpm.
    1987 AW11 MR2 Supercharger (4AGZE)
    1974 TA22 Celica (2TG bored and stroked)

    Thanks to James Cameron's Terminator films, we know that robots are stronger, faster, tougher and more Austrian than the rest of us.

  7. #7
    broken down ex guru Chief Engine Builder feral4mr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    you wont fit the 4age inlet manifold on with-out lowering the s/c as they foul. or make a custom inlet manifold like Ben did.

  8. #8
    Junior Member Grease Monkey rick q's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Super impressed with the speed of these responses - thanks.

    I'm guessing from the above that drawing air in through the freewheeling s/c is fine. Without the ABV, what happens at the transition from "n/a" to s/c engaged. Is there an almighty thump or jerk from no-boost to boost? The car is street driven by the way.

    It seems like running the TB after the SC works very well too, but as mentioned earlier you will need a decent sized venting valve to stop the throttle being blown apart by the SC when closed. This will mess with your ECU as well.
    How does it mess with the ECU?

    And yes, I realize I'll have to drop the s/c to clear the small port manifold. The standard GZE manifold is an ugly brute

    Cheers ..... Rick Jones

  9. #9
    SC14'd Member Domestic Engineer nick.parker's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Howdy,
    If you dont want a thump when then SC engages. Do it with around 70kPa of absolute manifold pressure, any higher and it will start to get rougher. At 70kpA I hardly notice the clutch engaging the algorithm I use is if rpm > 3600 or manifold pressure > 70kPa then trigger SC on. If trigger condition goes away sc does not turn off until 4 seconds have expired - covers momentary lift off and gear change so SC doesn't cycle the clutch.
    Works beautifuly, and I think better than stock since the 3600rpm thing means my sc can never engage say at super high revs since its already engaged from 3600. Cruising is always less than 3600rpm so its great. (BTW : I wrote custom software to run my SC).

    I think mullet nicely summed up the post SC throttle issues!

    Cheers, Nick
    == 4AGZE SC14 Supercharged ==
    Now flogg'n the SC14 @ 18psi....

  10. #10
    Estranged Member Chief Engine Builder mullett's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    A venting valve messes with the ECU if it's AFM, but I forgot that you were running a MAP version (I keep thinking of it in relation to my car) I'm not sure about MAP and how they go with different situations, but I'd imagine that since it simply measures manifold pressure, what goes on before that doesn't make much difference at all. I notice a little kick when my SC engages without the ABV, it'd be a LOT harsher with the TB on the manifold side. Having the TB before the SC makes all the transitions kind of smooth, and means that the SC doesn't draw much power off the engine when the throttle is shut and the SC is running, because there's no air for it to pump...

    RM.

  11. #11
    tilting at windmills Carport Converter Ben Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by mullett
    If you're going to go to all the trouble, I'd suggest getting an SC14, aftermarket managment, and arrange some sort of good cooler (water to air if you can't fit a front mount) This should give you at least 150-160rwhp, and insane torque....
    I'm getting more than that with a SC12

    The SC engaging with a bit of a thump is the one down side of my current BOV setup. I got a spring from turbosmart which is designed for supercharged applications and it vents at cruise and idle (bypassing the supercharger). The only problem is, when I hit the throttle, there is a delay before the valve closes fully - it's only slight, but it bugs the hell out of me. I am very fussy though.

    You should have no problems with the valve messing with the ECU, you will want to plumb it back into the inlet system as they are bloody loud when they vent, and you don;t want it sucking dirty air at idle or cruise.

    I'd suggest grabbing a 3S-GTE throttle body as they have the same style of 3-wire idle motor as the ZE as well.

  12. #12
    Estranged Member Chief Engine Builder mullett's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    So at the end of the day you don't gain alot of throttle response having the TB on the intake, because of the valve response time? Interesting...

    RM.

  13. #13
    jzx100 fan boy Domestic Engineer slide86's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    i have fitted the bigport manifold to my GZE and retained the SC setup. I had to lower it about 3 inches and out bout 1 inch.

    the biggest head f**k is the engine mount. the SC fouls on it and you have to grind some of it off to make it fit. even then its still real tight!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Witzl
    Please visit here, they will have all the answers you need for this "conversion" - www.hot4s.com.au

  14. #14
    tilting at windmills Carport Converter Ben Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by mullett
    So at the end of the day you don't gain alot of throttle response having the TB on the intake, because of the valve response time? Interesting...
    The only time you lose response is when you're coming on boost, once you're on boost the throttle response is magnificent. The best way I can describe it is that it feels like a good motor on throttle bodies (or twin webbers), but with massive torque.

  15. #15
    Junior Member Grease Monkey rick q's Avatar
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    Default Re: GZE Questions

    Great responses everyone - keep them coming.

    From the above, it now seems simplest to have the throttle body before the s/c, and forget the ABV altogether. I gather than throttle response is OK for everyday driving, despite the length of inlet track between the T/B and the valves.

    I also gather that the GZE should finally stop all the other clubbies running 20 valves from kicking sand in my face.

    slide86 - is there any chance of a side on photo of yours to see how you managed the revised s/c mount.

    I haven't searched yet, but does anyone have experience with water injection after the s/c and before the intercooler as a means of reducing charge temps?
    Cheers ..... Rick Jones
    Fraser Clubman

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