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Thread: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

  1. #1
    TorquePilot 1st year Apprentice
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    Default RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Hey people,

    I'm new here, long time reader but to date, not much of a poster so please bear with me...

    I've been toying with the dynamics of the RA23 Celica and since I'm continuing my bad habit of big engines in tiny cavities, I'm hoping to draw on experience and pre-empt traction/stability issues before they become an issue.... at say, 280kph or so.

    I'm blue blooded by birth (there's nothing at all wrong with Toyotas guys, I actually quite like them so don't get me wrong...) and the closest I've ever come to owning anything un-ford is the Mazda built 91 model Laser TX3, have a spate of falcons and cortinas in my list of cars, recently been introduced to hi tech tubos by way of my XR6T. My wife is a bigger hoon than I and she's always been keen for Toyotas and in particular, this classic model Celica. The RA23 was her Christmas present and I've since bought her a JZA80 TT 6speed manual as her daily driver.

    We're now looking to develop her (RA23) toy car with a very modded 2JZ-GTE and V161 6speed, we've also sourced JZA70 front and rear ends and so far they're an easy enough fit with only minor issues to contend with. As I said, Toyotas aren't my area of expertise although I'm getting there slowly...

    Several questions and areas I'd need help with:

    (1) Bullet proof diff options, has anybody ever fitted the JZA80 Torsens to any *A70 diff housing or maybe even fitted the JZA80 housing itself to the *A70 subframe? or would the *A70 Torsens survive given it'll only be catapulting 1200kg of car into the scenery??

    (2) The tallest *A70 ratio I know of so far is an uber-rare 3.5:1 (and where the hell would I find one of them anyway?) The Mk4 Supra wears a 3.27:1 and it has marginally bigger diameter wheels than the Celica will have... does The G Series diff have a more suitable ratio set for the V161 gearbox...?

    (3) I bought a JZA80 Supra frontcut because it had the 6speed gearbox fitted from factory, the engine is only a 2JZ-GE. It also doesn't have the VVT-i I wanted either, is there any way I could effectively use this engine or would I be better off turfing and starting with an Ariso or similar frontcut with the 2JZ-GTE VVT-i on board?

    (4) Is there a one stop shop to get things like HKS-264/272 cams, VVT-i heads, 3.4litre stoker kits, aftermarket intakes, etc...? I don't mind (read: "I'd Prefer") quality secondhand items for just a little less than the premium expected for the new ones though...

    (5) Brake Booster and/or Master Cylinder Options? I've heard the *A70 4bolt master cylinder ought to fit straight onto the original booster... is that right? Since I have the frontcut, is there any reason I couldn't fit the JZA80 booster in it's place (i.e. does anyone know if this can/cannot be done)??

    I will be taking pics as I go, I'm sure it'd make a handy tech article later...

    Thanks Guys!


  2. #2
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    as far as stability goes, what is the difference between track and wheelbase of the RA and the JZA?
    are you really going to go to 280km/hr? salt flat racing?

    just to clear things up, you are transplanting the suspension and associated parts from the JZA70 to the the RA? are you altering track of the JZA parts? if not, are you extending the RA wheelbase?

    traction.. guess it depends what anti-lift or dive you build into it. IRS tends to squat no? not so good for traction. why not a G series diff with usual 4 link with Watts link?
    as for diff choice... it sort of depends on power/torque expectd, and how it will be used... for burnout/drag, maybe a torsen is not the best choice. hilux with spool would work nicely tho

    sounds like a fun project... are you aiming to have it registered? chatted to engineer yet?

    cams can br gotten sometimes in rasonable condition second hand, but for the few extra hundred dollars, why not go new? peace of mind and all that.
    3.4L strokers? pretty penny there, and i wouldn't bet on any second hand ones coming up, or being in good condition... unless you are building dedicated drag car, might be a step too far? depends what power you want... 600? 800? 1500hp?

    what is the end purpose of the car? road car? race car? drag car? registered?
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcorollas
    as far as stability goes, what is the difference between track and wheelbase of the RA and the JZA?
    are you really going to go to 280km/hr? salt flat racing?

    just to clear things up, you are transplanting the suspension and associated parts from the JZA70 to the the RA? are you altering track of the JZA parts? if not, are you extending the RA wheelbase?

    traction.. guess it depends what anti-lift or dive you build into it. IRS tends to squat no? not so good for traction. why not a G series diff with usual 4 link with Watts link?
    as for diff choice... it sort of depends on power/torque expectd, and how it will be used... for burnout/drag, maybe a torsen is not the best choice. hilux with spool would work nicely tho

    sounds like a fun project... are you aiming to have it registered? chatted to engineer yet?

    cams can br gotten sometimes in rasonable condition second hand, but for the few extra hundred dollars, why not go new? peace of mind and all that.
    3.4L strokers? pretty penny there, and i wouldn't bet on any second hand ones coming up, or being in good condition... unless you are building dedicated drag car, might be a step too far? depends what power you want... 600? 800? 1500hp?

    what is the end purpose of the car? road car? race car? drag car? registered?
    Yep, that's right, the entire front and rear subframes from a JZA70 (Mk3 Supra) will become one with this Celica.

    The Mk3 Supra suspension is 120mm wider on front, 150mm wider on the rear, Wheelbase is 170mm longer than that of the Celica. John Wilson (the ACT Traffic Authorised Engineer on this) suggested I leave the subframes untouched and recover any wheelbase I felt neccesary by relocating the front subframe forward by up to 50mm. He suggested that relocating wouldn't be neccesary tho because the science behind engineering the original front end on the Celica was far from exact anyway and that steering geometry of the Mk3 setup would be far superior even given the shortfall of the intended location on the celica.

    John also believed the wider track would be more than helpful for it's stability at higher speeds since we intend to aim for about 300 - 350rwkw initially and it will be road registered for recreational driving on weekends and the occasional track events at winton, eastern creek, calder, mt buller, etc... 280kliks is what the gearing will achieve given rolling dimension of chosen tyre, gearbox ratios and diff if I could find my prefered diff ratio of 3.3:1. I figured if it was capable of reaching those speeds then every part needed to be setup from the outset to be able to do it too... just in case.

    I chose to go with this suspension setup including IRS because of after market go-faster suspension bits, IRS is something different that isn't often done and also because of the stability and control benefits applicable to it's intended circuit racing application... I didn't stich with the live axle because of several reasons, I've always thought live axle diffs on road-going vehicles are designed to squat on launch and naturally oppose that action so that tramp when braking would provide extra traction, even if the suspension was setup immaculately on the live axle, a buck on one rear wheel still affected the other and even if traction was superb, engines generally then turn the next turnable component which is the entire diff assembly, the reason why high-powered streeters lift one front wheel off the ground if not both. IRS is generally dead neutral when factory installed since the diff housing is solid bolted and control arms are independent of torque-loading in either direction... much better for all-round usage, especially where directional stability under power or heavy braking is important. Oh, one thing I didn't mention... trailing arm IRSes including the blade setup on the BA/BF Falcons do tramp on braking due to their designing that feature in however drive torque still has no effect regarding squat or lack thereof.

    Originally this block won't be stroked but I'm eventually looking to have the power output of the RA23 equal my TD Cortina with the same Mk3 front and rear ends, it gets an off-the-shelf phase 3 Nizpro kitted XR6Turbo engine and T56 6speed which is rated at 450 flywheel kilowatts and 920Nm, this very kit hurls an 1800+ kilo falcon into the low ten second quaters... imagine this setup in a car that weighs slightly less than 1200kg...? As far as my little wife is concerned, the stroker 2JZ and heavy bottom-end work is only a matter of time.

    Definately fun, both cars definately getting registered and definately good buddies with an engineer...
    Last edited by bugeyedcreepy; 18-04-2006 at 06:03 AM. Reason: Oh, one thing I didn't mention... trailing arm IRSes

  4. #4
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia Alchemist's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    If you are looking at a cheaper way of getting a 2JZ-GE and a V161 look at buying a 96+ SZ-R they have the V161 and the Torsen LSD.

  5. #5
    I make people cry Chief Engine Builder Draven's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    edit: I am a dong
    http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7465
    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    and of course campbell newman's completely fucking everything he touches so badly that he should be called dick fingers.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Carport Converter SL666's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    I'm not sure what the engine bay in a RA is like, but i suspect you might have a bit of work ahead of you trying to get the engine to sit in a good spot, eg low and back, they are no 250, but they are still a long engine.

    Sounds like a very interesting toy though.

    for what its worth, i suggest that with a reasonable sized single turbo, with the associated fuel system etc, you will get your target power figure, but i also suspect that because what you want to do with it, you might want to look more at smooth power delivery etc, i know that my 1J in hilux is definatley traction impeded with only 170 rwkw, however its only in the ~1250kg category.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Quote Originally Posted by Alchemist
    If you are looking at a cheaper way of getting a 2JZ-GE and a V161 look at buying a 96+ SZ-R they have the V161 and the Torsen LSD.
    picked up this very frontcut, would still like to know if anyone has ever swapped in said center or diff housing into the *A70 rear end... getting the center is easy, I have two I could wander out and buy now if I wanted...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Quote Originally Posted by SL666
    I'm not sure what the engine bay in a RA is like, but i suspect you might have a bit of work ahead of you trying to get the engine to sit in a good spot, eg low and back, they are no 250, but they are still a long engine.

    Sounds like a very interesting toy though.

    for what its worth, i suggest that with a reasonable sized single turbo, with the associated fuel system etc, you will get your target power figure, but i also suspect that because what you want to do with it, you might want to look more at smooth power delivery etc, i know that my 1J in hilux is definatley traction impeded with only 170 rwkw, however its only in the ~1250kg category.
    Thanks SL666,

    Surprisingly enough, the RA23 enginebay strut towers are about 100mm wider apart than the towers in a JZA70. a number of people have already swapped 1JZ's into these so it's perfectly feasible lengthwise too... even if there isn't much to play with. I do have the option to relocate the front end forward a couple of inches to help with balance but still toying with my options there... it's likely tho

    I was going the single turbo setup with something like a GT35/40 with comp a/r of 0.6, turbine a/r of 0.86 and prolly hks264, the vvt-i head would help torque since as you say, smooth and consistent power delivery is ideally what I'd be after...

    That stroker block would make drifting a real hoot later on down the track... at this stage that'll be the only distinction between these two cars, a clear litre in capacity.

  9. #9
    I make people cry Chief Engine Builder Draven's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    be aware if you plan on going vvt-i then your cams are going to cost you about double what the non-vvti ones would
    http://www.toymods.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7465
    Quote Originally Posted by xero View Post
    and of course campbell newman's completely fucking everything he touches so badly that he should be called dick fingers.

  10. #10
    Toymods Pimp Chief Engine Builder Norbie's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Frankly I can't see the stroker kit being worthwhile, especially given the ludicrous pricetag. Getting such a light car to hook up is going to be enough a challenge with a 3 litre turbo, never mind a 3.4! I Trust me you won't have any dramas drifting such a contraption if you feel the need.

    This is a massive project you've described, there's a lot of very serious engineering involved. It seems like you're well across it though, so I look forward to watching your progress!

  11. #11
    Current UZA80 owner Chief Engine Builder JustCallMeOrlando's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Quote Originally Posted by bugeyedcreepy
    Surprisingly enough, the RA23 enginebay strut towers are about 100mm wider apart than the towers in a JZA70. a number of people have already swapped 1JZ's into these so it's perfectly feasible lengthwise too... even if there isn't much to play with. I do have the option to relocate the front end forward a couple of inches to help with balance but still toying with my options there... it's likely tho .
    That extra width comes from the McPherson Strut suspension of the Celica vs the Supras double wishbones. Length wise though, there is a massif difference
    Teh UZA80 - Project Century - Remotely p00'd by association

  12. #12
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    wider track and longer wheelbase can only help with stability, but for such high speeds, some aerodynamic aids, esp at the front, could help reduce it wandering around.

    as far as maintaining the JZA wheelbase, the main reason you would want to do that is to recover the ackermann angles. however, you can also change that be moving the rack itself.
    smaller wheelbase requires more ackermann (moving rack rearwards a bit?) but if you plan on higher speed driving, then perhaps increasing steering angles over ackermann might be good to increase slip angle on inside tyre?, or under to make it more stable?
    plenty of room to play around
    longer wheelbase should help a little with high speed stability and maintain the original JZA steering angles... the celica angles mean nothing anymore...

    except.... position of the strut tops. ideally you would move front suframe forward to get your desired castor, without having the lower control arms at an angle in the bushes. 1cm is about 1deg(ish) so if you want to move frame forward by more than bout 5cm, you might need to think about relocating/extending the strut top mounts on the body... but moving the whole kaboodle forward (and thus engine relatively backwards) can only be a good thing for weight distribution etc....

    as for aftermarket bits, they come up on yahoo auctions from time to time...
    these ones look a bit crap, but are around $1000 minimum, no idea on specs, btu the mention 800ps.
    http://page8.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/h22290624


    heres a whole engine with 272 intake and exhaust cams (i wish i had access to container shipping )
    http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m30436347

    this is VVTi? http://page12.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/p45357136

    etc etc..
    Last edited by oldcorollas; 18-04-2006 at 03:16 PM.
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
    "There is hardly anything in the world that a man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper" - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

    AU$TRALIA... come and stay and PAY and PAY!!! The moral high horse of the world!

  13. #13
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia Alchemist's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcorollas
    Indeed it is, note the bulge on the right hand side of the cam cover, I would quite like this engine would drop in rather nicely to my engine bay....

  14. #14
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    this is nicer http://page7.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/g5165870

    look thru the search here
    yahoo link
    "I'm a Teaspoon, not a mechanic"
    "There is hardly anything in the world that a man can not make a little worse and sell a little cheaper" - John Ruskin (1819 - 1900)

    AU$TRALIA... come and stay and PAY and PAY!!! The moral high horse of the world!

  15. #15
    Junior Member Automotive Encyclopaedia Alchemist's Avatar
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    Default Re: RA23 vs 2JZ-GTE

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcorollas
    Ya....that is hotness, and not much more expensive either if only had some money to ask John from ImportBitz to put this in his next shipment....

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