Group Buys - is approval a bit of a joke?

[roadkill]

Hi,

if we're going to open this can of worms can you at least try and sprinkle some more sugar on your argument to make it a bit sweeter?

I'm listening, and i think you MAY have a point. So, instead of ranting and raving would you care to explain where your point of view is coming from. I've got particular interest in your commercial view.

bEn

[ed]

i thought i nutted out a series of reasonably clear issues in my first post, which a few reasonable folk agree with. the apparent lack of any interest in either the issues themselves or even some acknowledgment of the posts at all from the board side of the fence has got my goat little...

specifically with your group buy...

- firstly, whats with the random number 25? whats that set? you dont meet 25 you cant go ahead with the buy? (asdie: good luck sorting out the refunds when it only gets to 24) but anyways...youve gone over 25. does that breach something? i thought the board wanted to control numbers and account for everything. or not? now the number of items your selling is no longer a fixed 'group buy' as is typical in regular instances. instead youre basically the unpaid middleman for cary, selling as many of his items as the forums can buy. which appears to be all of them, if not more. there is no set limit other than his stock level or ability to produce more.

now if all the board cares about is that YOU dont take a left over and sell it on ebay, well, thats a bit retarded, as cary is definietly making a wad of cash off the forums (without being a paying sponsor) and in another heartbeat the board would normally be on the phone infracting someone else in another thread for some kind of unauthorised commercial sale without sponsors authority. what if cary just wanted to sell his bushes without your help? same price, same discount. whats the nuance that makes the difference? (please note, i dont have a singlevthing against your group buy, im up for ANY strategy that gets peopele the parts they need at good prices, just using it as a talking point)

yours is just a case to explore exactly what and how this new batch of rules really mean to achieve. 'profiteering'? man, theres 100's of factors not accounted for in these list of rules that will do nothing to inhibit someone from achieving that aim. i dont think the board really has a handle on whats involved in group buys, and the rules theyve implemented are well meant, but hardly comprehensive enough to cover the scope of issues that arise within group buy contexts. as i said in my first post, all well and good to introduce rules, but then you need to implement them, and as seen, the ability of the board to respond in a timely fashion to negotiate things is lack lustre at best, so im interested to se how they expect to roll it out and make it work

[wilbo666]

Sorry, I haven't followed group buys closely in the past.... was there a particular incident that highlighted the fact there the existing self regulated system wasn't functioning acceptably?

If there needs to be rules that seem to be as complex and as difficult to achieve as what I've recently read why not just simply ban group buys all together? I don't like the idea of getting rid of group buys all together, but if we implement a set of rules that is so difficult to abide by that no one can then what is the real difference?


And while we are kinda on topic can I inquire as to the recent noticeable shift towards an increasingly regulated Toymods? Toymods seemed to be working just fine... and now we have a crack down on a number of things, "infractions" etc....what gives?

ps I also support ed's thoughts.

Cheers
Wilbo

[TheToyman75]

Ed,

Its great to see you still have an opinion about everything and have the time to voice it. Feedback is always considered (up to a point) and we have no problem with agreeing to disagree. Which is what we have here..

Your thoughts and views are out of step with the boards and I hope you can understand that I have no intention of justifing what was a long and debated discussion for your benefit.

If you actually want to assist rather than just make noise why not join us on the board and have a voice when these decisions are made.

As for the board commiting more time and answers, thats what our board meetings are for. We do what we can in the time we have and for that I dont make any appologies.

Lambo has dropped the ball with not getting the Group Buy rules up yet and for that I do appologise.He is busier than usual with work and I should have made sure it happened.

As for your shit stir on the Qty of items in Roadkills Group Buy. He is running a good group buy and he has the boards support with how its going. He is selling on these forums the qty he is ordering and that is intent of that ruling.

Edit - Just to add, I am not interested in further disussing rules that are not even posted up for Forum users to read. As for the rules not catering for all and every situation they wont. At the end of the day any Group buy or commercial type sale is considered as we are aware of them and anything we dont feel is within the intent of what we approve will be removed.

Repeat offenders will be banned and we will continue to rely on the greater community for assistance with self regulating.

End of story.

[ed]

this is me assisting. this is what i can offer. sorry i cant come to meetings, crucify me now! lol

you shoud be happy that someone gives enough of a fuck about things here to voice an opinion. im also happy to be wrong, but it seems you guys dont even entertain discussion (unless its had within the walls of a person-person meeting) ..forgive me if i trip over something that just doesnt appear to make any sense. and from the few other posts above it doesnt seem im entirely alone in this opinion.

but thats a moot point, thems the rules. the discussion has been had. no need to spell it out for the benefit of population it is impacting upon (which is clearly only me)

you guys obviously give no fuck for opinion, thats cool

[TheToyman75]

Sorry, I haven't followed group buys closely in the past.... was there a particular incident that highlighted the fact there the existing self regulated system wasn't functioning acceptably?

If there needs to be rules that seem to be as complex and as difficult to achieve as what I've recently read why not just simply ban group buys all together? I don't like the idea of getting rid of group buys all together, but if we implement a set of rules that is so difficult to abide by that no one can then what is the real difference?


And while we are kinda on topic can I inquire as to the recent noticeable shift towards an increasingly regulated Toymods? Toymods seemed to be working just fine... and now we have a crack down on a number of things, "infractions" etc....what gives?

ps I also support ed's thoughts.

Cheers
Wilbo

Wilbo,

I thought your post deserved a quick reply.

The discussion in this thread has had a massive beat up in true Toymods Style. Once the rules are actually up for review have a look over them and hopefully they wont seem to daunting.

Weather or not you agree with them is a different discussion but following their intent wont be difficult. Of course anyone deliberatly attempting to bypass there intent will probably be banned as we just are not interested in having to deal with that shit.

The "increased regulation" is really more a case of making the rules that have always been in place more well recognised. The only reason we wrote the Group Buy rules so was that anyone wanting to look into doing one could reference something without having to wait till we got back to them or discussed it at a board meeting.

[Draven]

Rod... no offence, but that entire statement seems to be a massive cop-out, out of step with most of Ed's argument.

And sliding in "and have the time to voice it" - fark dude, do you realise how little time your average surgeon has to spare? Just because we can't all afford the time to join the board (I respect you guys for putting that time aside, but I couldn't commit to that amount of time) doesn't mean they don't care about the club.

This is not an argument about shit stirring, as you so politely put it... I can genuinely see where he's coming from.

When I (and Karl) have, in the past, run group buys on True-Tracs, I've requested board approval, got it, and then got as many people as I can on board, then used that number as a bargaining tool to perhaps get better prices than what was originally quoted.

The idea of the board regulating numbers is, frankly, unrealistic and unhelpful. Either the number will go over (which is great - possibly a better price for everyone involved), or it's a fraction under - in which case either the group buy falls through, or the group buy starter takes a risk, orders the extra numbers to help out their fellow toymodders, then tries to make it back to even by selling the extras off.

The system was never broken, as far as I am aware... why are we trying to over-regulate/break it?

[ed]

I thought your post deserved a quick reply.

subtle as an ice pick eh rod

ah fuck it

[TheToyman75]

this is me assisting. this is what i can offer. sorry i cant come to meetings, crucify me now! lol

you shoud be happy that someone gives enough of a fuck about things here to voice an opinion. im also happy to be wrong. but it seems you guys dont even entertain discussion (unless its had within the walls of a person-person meeting?) forgive me if i trip oiver something that just doesnt appear to make any sense. and from the few other posts above it doesnt seem im entirely alone in this opinion.

but thats a moot point, thems the rules. the discussion has been had. no need to spell it out for the benefit of population it is impacting upon (which is clearly only me)

you guys obviously give no fuck for opinion, thats cool

Ed,

We read your opinions and generally your views are ones we have considered. If we read something we had not considered already we would rediscuss it but so far I haven't. I am happy to be wrong, The board is happy to edit and change things. We dont have the time to re-argue and discuss shit we have already done, with every forum member who disagrees with a rule.

Some of our rules are to protect forum users, some are to benefit financial club members and some like the group buy ones are to encourage commercial quantity sales to take the form of sponsorship as opposed to "group Buys"

Every other week we get some one attempting to shift their companies goods on the forums and line their pockets without having to be a sponsor. We consider all the emails that come through. What gets vrought up here and seen by the massies is a tiny fraction of what we have to review.

Without sponsors, these forums close. And Fast ! In fact our current level of forum sponsorship will most likely see us taking a loss on running these unless we get some new sponsors on board.

So some times we make decisions that we see as the lesser of two evils.

[TheToyman75]

subtle as an ice pick eh rod

ah fuck it

Ed subtlty (or spelling) is not my strong point but believe it or not I wasn't having a stab in your direction. Wilbo's post just captured the essence of one of the biggest problems I see in this thread. I am posting answers to an arguement over rules no-one outside the Board has read yet.

[TheToyman75]

Rod... no offence, but that entire statement seems to be a massive cop-out, out of step with most of Ed's argument.

And sliding in "and have the time to voice it" - fark dude, do you realise how little time your average surgeon has to spare? Just because we can't all afford the time to join the board (I respect you guys for putting that time aside, but I couldn't commit to that amount of time) doesn't mean they don't care about the club.

This is not an argument about shit stirring, as you so politely put it... I can genuinely see where he's coming from.

When I (and Karl) have, in the past, run group buys on True-Tracs, I've requested board approval, got it, and then got as many people as I can on board, then used that number as a bargaining tool to perhaps get better prices than what was originally quoted.

The idea of the board regulating numbers is, frankly, unrealistic and unhelpful. Either the number will go over (which is great - possibly a better price for everyone involved), or it's a fraction under - in which case either the group buy falls through, or the group buy starter takes a risk, orders the extra numbers to help out their fellow toymodders, then tries to make it back to even by selling the extras off.

The system was never broken, as far as I am aware... why are we trying to over-regulate/break it?

Draven,

I am rarely on here now due to some pressing person issues. I have logged in tonight because I have been getting MSN messages and phone calls over this discussion.

Just to clarify something that has clearly been mis understood and poorly voiced.

The qty rule in regards to group buys is that "The Qty Purchased by the group buy, Must equal the amount sold on toymods" It is words to that effect. I dont have the rules here, Lambo made the notes and once again I do appologise for them not being up yet. It has been a failing of the board that they are not online for review and educated comment.

The rule DOES NOT require a fixed quantity to be specified. We dont give 2 shits how many get sold, Just that the total aquired is sold here on Toymods.

[ed]

my response to that, if i were to organise a group buy, is that i'd just lie about numbers. or better yet, add $5 or something to the price per item to line my pockets. unless you guys are going to start asking for invoices? group buys are a PITA, and as the organiser you need to know exactly what youre doing, and have a buffer for failure. and noone knows until the day of invoice and payment to the supplier as to exactly whats going to happen. theres no farken way i'd organise a group buy without a buffer, kinda like standby seats on flights etc

so, how does this quota thing help anyone, anyone at all? it protects members from being taken advantage of? 24people score a bargain, and buyer has a leftover.... tellme who got burned? that really does sound all ass-backwards

[TheToyman75]

my response to that, if i were to organise a group buy, is that i'd lie about numbers. or better yet, add $5 to the price per item to line my pockets. unless you guys are going to start asking for invoices?

how does this quota thing help anyone, anyone at all? and seriously, hows anyone going to police even a pofteenth of the truth underpinning a group buy?

Ed,

No set of rules that anyone would bother to read will come close to covering all situations. We post up rules as a guideline, and we evaluate anywhere we see that the intent of these are being broken.

As for gorup buys and invoices, Yes we may very well ask to see them. We may call your supplier in person to check and no we cant police things very far. But we can close your group buy and bann your ass if we feel their has been a breach of trust or we have been mislead. This isn't a company, you dont sign a contract to get a log in or have to promus us your first born son. We opperate as a community and rely on people doing the right thing. The rules are there to help people know what we feel the right thing is.

Anyone who lies to us about the pricing or the qty is clearly only doing it to self serve their needs and line their pockets. Which is exactly what we are attempting to avoid.

And call me a fool but I dont actually believe for one second you personally would do that. I may disagree with you on many things but I dont question your integrity.

[ed]

ok, so my dawn of enlightenment has hit, and im breaking my own rule...
rod, i know the intention is good, and good luck with that. but im over trying to help and raise issues if it either gets met with silence, or the sense that the opinion is malignantly misguided and unwanted.

ill leave this with the best 'before black frames were cool' demotivator

[TheToyman75]

As for who got Burned - these forums get Burned. The club gets Burned and I dont have a place to spend the little free time I have. Almost every single Forum sponsor we have currently or previouly has only become a forum sponsor because their request for a Group Buy was denied.

So sure we can allow anything and 24 people get a bargain. Or we can do what we do now, and the forum stays a Free online community thanks to the sponsors that saw the value in the clientel thats here and paid to sell their stuff rather than group buy it.

Like it or not there is a commercial side to these forums that is required to keep it online.