NEW Forum Feature - Infractions

[Gavatron]

and to a lesser extent Gavs sig. I was watching yesterday when Gav changed it to the largest text he could, with the Line1, Line 2 etc... it was not a mod that changed it to the pisstake large sized sig..

why do people feel the need to be smartarses ALL the time?
C'mon guys, grow up.

Not having a dig at you Stu, but I challenge you to find another post where I have had a shot/been a smartarse except perhaps in jest.

Again, I did it to prove a point. I have followed the rules of this forum to the letter ever since being on here, including the sig that I got the infraction for. But apparently following rules is not good enough...? Somehow have to preempt a mod's mood or thoughts on a topic and act accordingly? Sorry, but that's bullshit.

Maybe the infraction system could be limited to big 'infractions', not pissy little things like sings being too long (or even the right length?). I didn't see the problem with what was happening before, where River or another mod would just trim the sig and let the person know, instead of making it some sort or crime.

[river]

Hi,

Though throwing an option out there!

Is it possible that people can only have a sig when they have a rep of say 100? If this could be setup can it be made that you CAN have a comment regarding wanted items in you sig ONLY if you have a link to your wanted thread? Lets face it, how many people have been looking for stuff and gotten it through talking in different threads ie the Classic Celica Dedicated thread, or even their respective build threads versus putting something in the wanted thread. I've listed a few wanted threads and never had a single hit on them.

Yes Ben, despite your diminutive e-wang, your option has been noted.

For better or worse, being a Board, things need to be discussed/debated and no one person can snap their fingers and make an immediate decision.

seeyuzz
river

[ed]

Yes Ben, despite your diminutive e-wang, your option has been noted.

it was the celica wasnt it?!!

[Andrew162]

i CANT come. i work late on mon nights. i occ make it to pizza afterwards. i had a night free the other week, and drove past looking to see if i'd randomly struck a night that co-incided with a meeting, but didnt.

and pigs ass i dont 'want' to come to events. i worked my bum off to get the car to toyotafest and ended up, yup, working. dyno day had jase take my car cause i was, er, working.

as for the plethora of other events? yeah, not so much interested. my feeling - theres an distinct impression of a clique, and i know im not alone in that impression. maybe im wrong, narrow minded, whatever. doesnt help when the 'club' deliberately emphasizes itself in contrast to the forum group, smacks down rulings from board meetings, and yet, as mentioned, has near no other visible presence.

to the internet community (who win on numbers, and general clubbish/community type activity) the 'club' is a small group of friends who like remind us that they are the 'real club' going way back before the internet, and have meetings somewhere that noone much else attends. sound a bit cliquey?

I'm sorry but Ed does have a point here. Refer to this from another recent thread for my views on it.

Not everyone can make it to these meetings and put their hand up to become a board member, or even in proxy has it's issues because what if you've only ever known these e-people online, and not in person? Do they get an e-Board Member vote if they could put their hand up from afar, yet no one knows who they are? Going back to the really early days most of the Board members were all from around the same area of Sydney, or never too far away to make it to meetings and events hosted locally. Now you see what's been created - not just a local club for Toyota modifiers, but a community of Toyota modifiers made up of Forum and Financial members from just about everywhere.

See here's where you (metaphorically) plant a seed to grow a tree, and before you know it you have a forest. These forums were that seed quite a number of years ago now, and now most 'trees' people don't even see because they're too far away or can't get themselves to within sight of those who planted the seed. You have people from all over Australia in this giant Toymods e-community here now, and even some international members as well. 4 Da Drift and Ed both have points with their 'clique' focus on this discussion, and I can see exactly where they're coming from.

Also in keeping with the clique-mentality here, just because you drive one type of car that YOU like, doesn't mean that you should be ostracised by the elitist horde for your choice in vehicle. Last I read on top of this site (under the sponsor's banner), it said "ToyMods provides a friendly environment for Toyota owners and enthusiasts in which they can learn how to modify their car and improve their automotive skills", not "if you drive a certain type of Toyota that should never have been made then your e-wang is smaller than everyone else's and you should just keep your opinion to yourself".

To me it comes down to choice. You can choose to be an arsehole and say "screw everyone else who doesn't drive my type of Toyota" or you could be supportive of their choice and encourage them in their efforts to maintain and modify their rides. Not everything on these forums should be taken in jest, although we have more than our fair share of smartarses here. And not everyone needs a smartarse off-handed comment about something that the person posting is trying to take seriously. I know personally when I owned my RAV I had a fair share of support from most members of these forums (although they were the old forums), now if you want support on your ride, you go to your Dedicated Thread. It's rather sad how this kind of segregation has developed, not only for help on individual rides, but for moral support to keep on going with it. It seems like if we didn't have these micro-communities enveloping Toymods, no one would give a fuck, and that's rather sad.

[CrUZida]

I spend far too much of my time on these forums listening to whingers that can spot all the problems with the forums and offer no solution. Then there are the others who are quite happy to point out problems and then offer some advice and solution, but never turn up to any meeting or event. So many e-advisors, yet nothing in person.

This is the bit I don't fully understand.
I didn't think there was such a big issue that we needed infractions.
I thought the forums were being run quite well, and we didn't need something as archaic as infractions.

Someone who has been around long enough to know, delete the thread/post. Don't edit it, just delete it. They'll get the picture soon enough.

A new person does something they shouldn't, edit it, and put a quick note saying what they've done that against the rules.

It takes barely any longer for a mod/member to dish out an infraction compared to actually fixing the current issue.

You have a sig too long, do as River has done so well for the last few months. Edit it and leave a witty comment.

I honestly don't see whats wrong with whats been done for so long. To me its worked very well.

Sure there have been cases where something else may have worked better, but IRRESPECTIVE of what you implement, there will ALWAYS be times where something else will work better.

The more complicated you make a system, the higher the likelyhood of a) people not understanding it, b) people not using it properly, and c) people eventually abusing it.

Its the old KISS saying, Keep It Simple Stupid.



I've been working in the mining industry for a while now, and its been so hardly drilled into me that I need to follow EVERY procedure that exists. What this creates, is a large group of people who are more likely to stuff up, because there are so many rules they have to remember, that they don't end up doing their job properly (or don't enjoy doing it)

Its probably hard to explain in writing, but the point I'm getting at is that the internet is one of the VERY FEW places where common sense can still prevail. And I'd like to keep it that way.


In my opinion, all that needs to be done, is to piss the infraction system off (pretend it never exists), cap the rep at a certain number (as has been suggested, likewise cap the repping value at a certain number), and the mods keep doing the job they have been doing for a long time.

I personally believe there is more than enough maturity here for the peers to take care of the system.

YES people can be assholes on here (funny enough, there are assholes in real life...)
YES people can and will flaunt the system (hmmm, reminds me of reality)
but more importantly YES there are a LOT of genuinely nice/caring people out there.


And above all, THIS IS THE INTERNET, TAKE IT LESS SERIOUSLY.

(I know this club and forum are a passion for some people, which we all appreciate, but at the end of the day, if this isn't a nice place to be, people won't come here).

[DrNick]

these forums used to have such a great sense of friendship and community.

what a shame how it is turning out.

i just hope that we can turn it around before we lose any more valuable contributors.

Really ? I dont remember that.Must have been before my time.
Out of the many forums that I frequent, this is the only one with regular complaints and unsatisfied users.

[river]

Hi,

Cruz... I did go in and remove long nicks etc. Initially I used to PM the person and ask for them to change it to within the forum guidelines. Mostly they'd reply and say ok and change it, but I used to get the occasional one who would slag back at me. In that case I went in and did it for them, and then copped a gobful from them in PM about it.

To save time I then not bothered about PMing the person, and I'd just go in and change their sig. This pissed off a few, but meh... so be it.

I also got lots of PMs from other people telling me of long sigs. I can't check every user, but others who cruised the forums would find long sigs and PM me. The problem began to take a lot of time, as I'd log into the forums and have to go through a stack of PMs about long sigs, and then go in and fix those sigs.

All the infraction, regarding sigs does, is now enable those same people who would PM me about a long sig, to actually do some small moderating themselves and ping the offender with an infraction for their sig.

The rule has always been in place, the infraction enables financial club members to be empowered with the ability to do soemthing about it themselves without having to PM a moderator.

If you look at the infraction list, it is merely the existing rules that have always been in place, but instead of having a mod go and sort the issue out, the club members can go and do it themselves. There is nothing new or sinister about what we are attempting here with the infractions or changing the rules. We are only providing the ability of financial members, who have a vested and financial interest in the running of the Club and these forums, the ability to penalise someone who breaks the rules.

Sure, it's not perfect and there may need to be tuning or other changes made to the infraction system. We are not hiding anything from the forum users, and we just wanted people to look at it and try it out.

The rules had never stopped people from posting and enjoying the forums. The infraction system, being based upon those rules, should also not stop people from using the forums how they always did.

Basic rules such as post in the right section, no post whoring, no l33t sp34k, no slagging off at people, no offensive posts, sigs to be 5 lines, selling outside the classifieds, etc are all the same as before and were generally accepted by everyone. The only difference is that these rules now come with a penalty for breaking them. Well, technically, there was always a penalty for breaking them, in that the post would be deleted or the user got -ve rep, but now they get an infraction.

seeyuzz
river

[river]

Hi,

Out of the many forums that I frequent, this is the only one with regular complaints and unsatisfied users.

And that's a good thing because it shows that people are passionate about these forums and enough so to vent their spleen over issues.

Basically, out of 14,000 forum members there are about 50 who have complained. From a statistical perspective that is 0.35% of the forum user base. It's a very small percentage, but still one that I'd like fixed. I know we will never have everyone being happy or satisfied with the way things are run and done here, but we are trying infractions and different things to see how they work.

As 4DaDrift said earlier, that human nature seems to focus on the bad things, and I guess that is why we get some complaints about how things are done. In the last 2 years we have gotten the ability to have historic plates, we are now a member of the CMC, we have moved our forums to some very expensive hardware (with full DRP capability), and we have recently upgraded the VBulletin software to the latest version - which comes with the abiity to implement infractions, which we are trying out. All of this has been done in an attempt to make your experience on these forums more enjoyable and faster (for those that remember the lag time on the previous system), as well as expand the Club into the direction of historic vehicles. We are have PayPal set up to allow people an easier method to pay for deposits (for events etc) and donations. We need to sort out some teething issues for using PayPal for membership, which we hope will be soon. These are things which were often asked for and we are now providing. If we only got one tenth of positive comments for the things we are trying to do to make this place better, as opposed to the complaints about what is wrong, then I'd be a happy old man.

seeyuzz
river

[roadkill]

Hi,



Yes Ben, despite your diminutive e-wang, your option has been noted.

For better or worse, being a Board, things need to be discussed/debated and no one person can snap their fingers and make an immediate decision.

seeyuzz
river

Hi,

i understand that. I just thought it was odd that everyone overlooked it and didn't make a comment.

Would be interesting to hear how it goes.

bEn

[RiceburnaGTV]

I have been writing and re writing my comment on this subject for a couple fo weeks now.

I must admit im not a fan of infractions being in place, this is based on (from what I see) there are far less wookies or stupid behaviour going on than ever before. My main point however is we dont want to deter new members by coming accross as a stale club or one that has no tollerance of people how dont know straight away how to handle themselves. There are alot of people including myself who initially came on here with no idea what the club was about, no idea how to fix my car etc and without being given the time to learn this I wouldnt be involved in the club as much as I am today.

Now after what River has said I completly understand why this has happened as im sure he sees and has to deal with it alot more than me.

My solution, can we maybe remove infractions but set up a team of mini moderators with limited mods powers such as sig changing and the ability to issue warnings etc. I would definately put my hand up to help and was about to approach the club anyway to offer some form of assistance for the club next year anyways. That way we can go back to the ways of old where the newbies just got a friendly reminder of the rule that was broken and the offending thread dissappear or be changed without any fuss due to there just being more hands on deck so to speak.

As for the clique aspect of this club I can definately see that but thats a natural part of the same people being the only ones who turn up to events,come to Dubbo come to some events and you will definately banter with other forum members in much the same way.

I think with the indroduction of some of the things that Riv has mentioned such as ease of joining and becoming a financial member that it will bring better sense of belonging and pride to the club that will then knock onto more members making the effort to get to events= better and bigger community.

Saying all of that I still believe infractions will cause more harm than good.

cheers
Nath

[CrUZida]

Cruz... I did go in and remove long nicks etc. Initially I used to PM the person and ask for them to change it to within the forum guidelines. Mostly they'd reply and say ok and change it, but I used to get the occasional one who would slag back at me. In that case I went in and did it for them, and then copped a gobful from them in PM about it.

To save time I then not bothered about PMing the person, and I'd just go in and change their sig. This pissed off a few, but meh... so be it.

To me, what you are doing is all that is needed.
You see a sig that doesn't comply, you edit it and put in a witty remark.
They get pissed off, PM you and slag you off, you delete the PM like it never existed (or delete the post if they make it public)
They do it again (ie make a non-compliant signature), you disable signatures for them, send them a PM sayng 'remind me on day XYZ and I'll re enable your signatures.'

They are now unable to abuse the signature system again.

I also got lots of PMs from other people telling me of long sigs. I can't check every user, but others who cruised the forums would find long sigs and PM me. The problem began to take a lot of time, as I'd log into the forums and have to go through a stack of PMs about long sigs, and then go in and fix those sigs.

All the infraction, regarding sigs does, is now enable those same people who would PM me about a long sig, to actually do some small moderating themselves and ping the offender with an infraction for their sig.

The rule has always been in place, the infraction enables financial club members to be empowered with the ability to do soemthing about it themselves without having to PM a moderator.

This is where you cap the rep system at a small value, say 100, and cap people +/- to say 5, and as soon as 10-15 people see the signature is too long, their rep is all but gone, and their ability to 'leech' off the forum is somewhat revoked.

You've reached the exact goal you were trying to achieve, but without the need for the infraction system.

If you look at the infraction list, it is merely the existing rules that have always been in place, but instead of having a mod go and sort the issue out, the club members can go and do it themselves. There is nothing new or sinister about what we are attempting here with the infractions or changing the rules. We are only providing the ability of financial members, who have a vested and financial interest in the running of the Club and these forums, the ability to penalise someone who breaks the rules.

How about this then, cap non-members at say +/- 2rep, and club members at +/- 5rep. This gives club members the ability to dish out more 'punishment', which is exactly what the infraction system was going to do (note, I'm not sure if this is possible with the software)

Same outcome, no need for new system.



My whole point is that I fail to see what the infraction system is supposed to do, when all I believe is needed is a tweak of the system we already have in place.
And more so I fail to see what benefit the infraction system can offer to the club.

[roadkill]

Hi,

i like the suggestions. They appear to be well thought out and seem to be a good alternative. I don't mind the infractions system but i do also think that it could be tweaked to be a bit better, consistent etc. I like the mini moderator idea.

bEn

[river]

Hi,

Yes, good ideas and it gives me something to present to the Board. I have a dream....

Now, regarding limiting the rep, pls see the same question in the VBulletin boards...
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showt...ght=reputation

It cannot be done unless some add-in (which costs money, and assuming such an add-in exists) is purchased or requires code in the system. Where the code resides and how it is run is something I know nothing about.

Interesting to see the comment in that VBulletin thread refers to using the infraction system, which is what we are doing.... but it appears to be not well liked.

Edit: Note the above VB thread talks about rep points and not rep power. So, I would assume rep power needs to be pulled back also otherwise you will have people with rep power of hundreds (like some of us have) but showing rep points of 100.

seeyuzz
river

[ed]

out of 14,000 forum members there are about 50 who have complained. From a statistical perspective that is 0.35% of the forum user base. It's a very small percentage,

now do the maths again based on what number of members are actually *active* and who generate the content of the forums, give it its character and flavour

other than that, i agree with all the points youve raised, and also echo the replies by penelope cruz and riceburna, no need to restate them

[The Witzl]

You know what... i had a good think about it, and i really cant see the need for the infractions system.

You tried it, it was an abject failure... so dump it.



The best solution to the problem are simply more moderators, but with lower powers. Obviously it's too much for one man to be doing all the signature moderating, and all the moderating in general.


As for the "clicky" nature of the actual club.... to be honest, i think that is more a case of the lack of attendance causing it, not the click effecting the attendance.
Wind the clock back to 2003-2005.... we used to ALWAYS get big physical attendances to cruises and events. The club itself worked the same way as it does now, and i see no difference in the "clickyness" there.

Wind forward to now... and no one turns up to events or meetings. No one runs for the board. No one is prepared to actually put some effort in for what is ultimately a thankless job.

Ed - i see your point about working all the time. But you know what - the board members have jobs and families too! So dont you think it a little unfair to expect them to be able to do what you cannot do?


Look, i agree something needs to change. However change will take a lot of time and effort.
So, who is going to put in the time and effort?
... most likely the same group of guys who have been doing it since 2002... cos i dont see anyone else donating their spare time to the club and the forums that the club runs.


To the board members reading this - I am officially offering my spare time to re-join the board, if you would have me. I will email as well to make sure it reaches all of you.