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Thread: Coil for High Energy Ignition

  1. #1
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Does anybody know if the older high energy
    electronic ignition unit by Silicon Chip magazine
    (June 1998, kit by Dick Smith) needs to be used
    with one of those "electronic" coils ?

    These coils, which usually do not have a
    ballast resistor, typically come with those stock
    reluctor-type distributors with built-in ignitors.

    This is because I have been using the high energy
    ignition with my Corolla 4K engine's standard coil
    (with ballast resistor) and I think it is overheating
    the coil. Several times, I had to pull by the road when
    the engine began to idle badly, sputtering, kind of like
    a way-off idle mixture setting. Initially I thought it was
    the ignition unit's power transistor or IC giving
    problems, but after cooling down the engine, it
    appeared to run fine again. I'm using the points to
    trigger it.

    I think the standard coil cannot handle the extended
    dwell set by the ignitor. I've reduced the variable
    resistor setting (VR1) in the Silicon Chip unit to the
    minimum, giving just 0.20 volts for a coil current of
    only 4 amps. The coil still runs very hot even at this
    setting, almost burning to the skin.

    Are those "electronic" coils made to handle extended
    dwell, or are they different in some other way ? These
    type of coils can usually be purchased in spare parts
    shops in Malaysia and are made by "Diamond" of Japan.
    Last edited by Tham; 30-03-2006 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Corrected VR1 Voltage Setting

  2. #2
    Junior Member Too Much Toyota oldcorollas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    get a Bosch Electronic coil (the black ones).
    don't get bosch GT40 orange coils.

    i've run the HEI with various standard oil filled coils, and even with an original small coil from a KE10. i used points to trigger also.

    however, it is better to get one from a car with electronic ignition, or one that is designed for extended dwell.

    you could limit the current a little more if you still have issues

    sounds like you are on the right track tho
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  3. #3
    Hopefully soon a 5S-GTE Chief Engine Builder MWP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Well that is very strange... the HEI kit should run your standard coil with ballast with no problems.
    Oil filled coils do normally get quite hot.
    When then overly hot they start to leak the cooling oil thats inside... any sign of this happening?

    As for using a different coil, any coil should work.
    I used a newer transformer style coil (not oil filled) off a mid 90s Toyota with good results.

    [edit]
    Here is a photo of the coil i used:

  4. #4
    Official Off Topic KING! Conversion King stradlater's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    I'm with MWP on that one. A HEI should not kill a coil. Unless it's configured wrong (I've killed two coils...)

    That said, I've put a standard black bosch coil (as Old Corollas referred to) onto my Crane HI-6 CDI unit which has enough power to melt ignition leads, and it worked fine. The Ignition control unit (otherwise known as your ignitor) should only give out as much power as the coil can handle. If the coil is getting hot and 'leaking' (Once again, I've done that twice) your igntion system isn't setup right.

    All said, if your having trouble with that coil, as Old Corollas suggested, get one of those Bosch Coils. I even have one I could sell and mail to you if you want.

    Let me know.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by stradlater
    I'm with MWP on that one. A HEI should not kill a coil. Unless it's configured wrong (I've killed two coils...)

    That said, I've put a standard black bosch coil (as Old Corollas referred to) onto my Crane HI-6 CDI unit which has enough power to melt ignition leads, and it worked fine. The Ignition control unit (otherwise known as your ignitor) should only give out as much power as the coil can handle. If the coil is getting hot and 'leaking' (Once again, I've done that twice) your igntion system isn't setup right.

    All said, if your having trouble with that coil, as Old Corollas suggested, get one of those Bosch Coils. I even have one I could sell and mail to you if you want.

    Let me know.


    Thanks, Stradlater.

    I'll see if those Japanese "Diamond" electronic
    coils here can be used.

    If not, I'll let you know if I decide to get the Bosch
    electronic coil from you.

    I'm still scratching my head as to the cause of the
    trouble. Maybe it is my ignition system setup as
    you suggested. It looks alright though - one wire
    to the coil positive, another to the coil negative,
    one to the distributor's points connector and the
    last from the box to earth.

  6. #6
    Hopefully soon a 5S-GTE Chief Engine Builder MWP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    When is the last time you has the dizzy's points replaced.

    Im guessing its actually not a coil problem, but a problem with the points.
    Maybe they are set incorectly or are dirty and when they get warm, they dont make proper contact.

  7. #7
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by MWP
    When is the last time you has the dizzy's points replaced.

    Im guessing its actually not a coil problem, but a problem with the points.
    Maybe they are set incorectly or are dirty and when they get warm, they dont make proper contact.

    Thanks, MWP.

    I had the points replaced about half a year ago,
    I think. They still look good, and I have just cleaned
    the contacts well. I'll try replacing them though.

    They are gapped at about 0.020 inches.


    Quote Originally Posted by MWP
    Well that is very strange... the HEI kit should run your standard coil with ballast with no problems.
    Oil filled coils do normally get quite hot.
    When then overly hot they start to leak the cooling oil thats inside... any sign of this happening?

    As for using a different coil, any coil should work.
    I used a newer transformer style coil (not oil filled) off a mid 90s Toyota with good results.

    The coil is running real hot, way to hot too touch
    for more than a second or two, but doesn't appear
    to be leaking any oil. I'm using a "Hanshin" Japanese
    coil, similar to those used in the Datsun 120Y. Installed
    it almost a year ago.

    Your transformer-type coil looks real compact and
    neat, unlike a bulky cylindrical oil-filled coil. I never
    thought of fitting one like that earlier. Are those
    the same mounting holes for the original oil coil ?
    Last edited by Tham; 30-03-2006 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #8
    SC14'd Member Domestic Engineer nick.parker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Have you got the opportunity to diagnose the operation of your circuit with an oscilloscope (at the logic level, rather the coil primary drive etc) ?
    How does your HE Ignition kit work? i.e. Is in on all the time except for a couple of msec to make a spark? What do your instructions say? Do you know what stock dwell angle is for your car with the points system?

    Cheers, Nick
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  9. #9
    Hopefully soon a 5S-GTE Chief Engine Builder MWP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tham
    Your transformer-type coil looks real compact and
    neat, unlike a bulky cylindrical oil-filled coil. I never
    thought of fitting one like that earlier. Are those
    the same mounting holes for the original oil coil ?
    They are smaller, cheaper, run cooler, use less power, create a stronger spark, etc, etc.
    Hence the reason why oil filled coils are not used in production cars anymore.

    The metal bracket you can see holding the coil and the Bosch ignitor came with the coil from the donor car and it did fit the old coils bolt holes (from memory).

    While i am running it with the Bosch ignitor now on the 21R, i did use it with the Jaycar kit when i was running the 18R.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by nick.parker
    How does your HE Ignition kit work? i.e. Is in on all the time except for a couple of msec to make a spark? What do your instructions say? Do you know what stock dwell angle is for your car with the points system?
    Its the Jaycar HEI kit.
    The coil dwell time is controlled by a smart IC (cant remeber the part number) depending on previous cycle charge currents.
    It only charges the coil long enough for it to be saturated.

  11. #11
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by nick.parker
    Have you got the opportunity to diagnose the operation of your circuit with an oscilloscope (at the logic level, rather the coil primary drive etc) ?
    How does your HE Ignition kit work? i.e. Is in on all the time except for a couple of msec to make a spark? What do your instructions say? Do you know what stock dwell angle is for your car with the points system?

    Cheers, Nick

    Thanks, Nick Parker.

    Sorry, I haven't had the opportunity to diagnose
    the high energy circuit with an oscilloscope.

    I believe the stock dwell angle is 49 degrees,
    plus or minus 3 degrees (i.e. between 46 - 52
    degrees) for the 4K engine with the points system.

    The high energy circuit gives a fixed spark duration
    of 0.9 milliseconds.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by MWP
    They are smaller, cheaper, run cooler, use less power, create a stronger spark, etc, etc.
    Hence the reason why oil filled coils are not used in production cars anymore.

    The metal bracket you can see holding the coil and the Bosch ignitor came with the coil from the donor car and it did fit the old coils bolt holes (from memory).

    While i am running it with the Bosch ignitor now on the 21R, i did use it with the Jaycar kit when i was running the 18R.

    MWP,

    Where did you get your Bosch ignitior from ?

    Thanks,
    Tham

  13. #13
    Hopefully soon a 5S-GTE Chief Engine Builder MWP's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tham
    MWP,
    Where did you get your Bosch ignitior from ?
    Thanks,
    Tham
    Supercheap.
    It cant be used with points though.

  14. #14
    Junior Member Grease Monkey
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    Default Re: Coil for High Energy Ignition

    I finally managed to find out why the
    coil was overheating.

    I was converting to the electronic distributor
    which I had bought from the salvage yard,
    and discovered that the 12 volt wire which
    comes from the "Run" position of the ignition
    key switch to the ballast resistor, had been
    connected directly to the coil's positive terminal,
    i.e. it had been wired AFTER the ballast resistor.

    Guess using an electronic coil without a resistor
    would have solved this in the first place !

    It may have been done that way by the previous
    owner , or assembled wrongly at the factory.
    Observing that the wire looked stock and had
    just enough length to go to the coil's positive
    terminal, I think it was more likely the latter.
    Very poor quality control in car assembly plants
    in Malaysia in those days.

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