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Thread: 20v problems starting

  1. #1
    is damn glad to meet ya. Domestic Engineer andy's Avatar
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    Default 20v problems starting

    Hi guys, hope somone can help me.

    for the past 2-3 weeks the car has been having problems starting, only if the engine has had some time to cool down.

    it will fire up, run for 5 sec and then cut out...
    then it will refuse to start for the next few minutes...
    leave the key in off position and then after a few min it will start.

    if i put the key in the on position(the one where all the lights on the dash come on) for about 30 sec, then try it, it usually fires up.

    like i said, it dosnt happen if the car was driven at least 30 min before. and on an odd occation it will still fire up properly.

    the silver 20v is in a ae82.. could it be the fuel pump starting to die?
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  2. #2
    is damn glad to meet ya. Domestic Engineer andy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    i also heard that the 5th injector is a cold start injector.. could this be buggered?
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    anybody have any advice?
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    I can tell you the 20V doesn't have a cold start injector.

    It does sound a little like a fuel supply issue the way it runs then dies after a little while, but if it can't supply enough fuel for any more than 5 secs of idling there's no way it'd be able to drive, and you didn't mention any issues once it was running?

    When you say refuses to start, do you mean it turns over but won't fire? Does the starting system seem like the problem? You mention it won't start, but also that if it does start it dies after 5 secs, does it ever do this when driving, or only when starting?

    It could be fuel pump or relay wiring, dodgy connection or earth, cutting out occasionally, but i would've expected it to do it indiscrimantly, not just when trying to start.

    Or the fuel pump cutout from the afm? I've heard of the odd afm dying, perhaps the problem is originating there? Its designed to stop the fuel pump if the engine stalls (eg in a crash), possibly if its sticking it won't let the fuel pump come on?

    Not sure why the engine temp is affecting it, if there's a dodgy connection the temp *could* affect it, resistance-wise, or possibly expansion/contraction of contacts?

    Sorry that's more questions than answers but there's a couple of ideas to look into.
    AE93 SX 20V - Next Wakefield track day is 13th of November 2015!
    1:15.47 at Wakefield Park | 1:59.45 at Eastern Creek GP | 1:08.81 at SMP South | 2:04.77 at Phillip Island
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  5. #5
    is damn glad to meet ya. Domestic Engineer andy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    Thanks mate. It good to ask alot of questions because you can diagnose the problem much easier.

    The engine has been in the car for the past 8 months. used to start without a prob. but now it will start and run for 5 sec, rev at 1500(cold engine) and then stall... so i have to leave it 'off' for a few min, put it in 'on' for a min then it will start and run normally.. roll starting wont work. there is no probs with the starting system.

    other problems it dose while driving(problems its had since i got it, but have gotten worse over time):
    - the revs dont stay the same. when i start slowing down for a set of lights the revs are 1100rpm, then when i come to a stop they will sometimes drop(80% of the time they will drop). sometimes i pull up at the lights and it will idle ruff and drop to 600-700rpm, then next time i pull up it will stay at 1100rpm...
    - sometimes when it drops to 600rpm and im turning in nuetral(parking for instance) it will stall because the revs will drop too far...
    - it has what you could call a flat spot at 3200 rpm(it starts spurrting, dosnt want to accelerate, if i remove my foot from the throttle it will skip a beat and sometimes a tiny backfire sound). it feels like something is sticking from 3.2 to 4.4(when vvt comes on), feels like it should be accelerating more for the ammount my foot is pressing the throttle. when the problem is happening(between those rev ranges) and i put my foot down abit more it will get unstuck and start accelerating properly but too fast for normal trafic. this flat spot only happens after a spirited drive(lets say reving it out to 7500rpm)when coasting afterwards. the flat spot is not there when im driving abit harder or foot to the floor. its only there when im just accelerating at a normal pase(which is 90% of the time). this is a problem because the way it is now, i either keep up with trafic but the engine is not enjoying it, or the engine is running well but im going too fast.
    Last edited by andy; 28-03-2006 at 02:20 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    I'm leaning to afm here a bit, mainly because of your on road problems and the idle hunting, but it also sounds like it could also be the ISCV. It could be worth checking and cleaning the ISCV (there was a thread about it recently, i think from lambolica), and also borrow an afm to swap and see if it changes/fixes anything.

    Ah, also check your timing. Not really sure if this could have anything to do with it, the fact it was fine then started means it would have to have been changed, any way you think the timing could have been changed around the time this started? Mechanic work on the car, or you and possibly knock the dizzy or have it loosened/out? Not really easy to do as long as its done up tight, but its probably worth checking to make sure its right. Also doesn't really explain how the symptoms got worse over time...

    Vacuum leak? Would cause idle problems, and possible flatspots and odd backfire from wrong mixtures, well prob not backfires with lean mixture... but mine pops a bit on overrun... But vac leak could get worse over time...

    Check those and see how you go.
    AE93 SX 20V - Next Wakefield track day is 13th of November 2015!
    1:15.47 at Wakefield Park | 1:59.45 at Eastern Creek GP | 1:08.81 at SMP South | 2:04.77 at Phillip Island
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  7. #7
    is damn glad to meet ya. Domestic Engineer andy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    thanks dude. + rep for you.

    i will try get another afm but how do i know the one im replacing it with isnt dodge? is there anyway of testing it?

    could a vaccum leak cause bad mixtures?

    i will be taking apart the iscv on the weekend(if i get around to it) just to check it. also got the timing checked already and it was off by .5 degrees. so i dont think thats it. while i was there got the tps checked and was told its fine aswell...

    in another thread they mentioned that spd signal help the ecu return to idle when you come to a complete stop. but i dont really want to try the dodgy "zip tied magnet onto driveshaft" method mentioned there.
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    Vac leak will mean more air is going in engine than ecu thinks so mixtures will be out. Borrow an afm off someone you know isn't having any problems. You can play around with a multimeter on your one but the only thing you'll definitavely find would be the fuel cutout; this will prob just switch at full closed flap (=zero airflow). I've checked the resistance variation on 2 afms side by side, its pretty hard to accurately compare, and check linearity, i also found slight differences at full open, but don't think this changes much. If your afm was stuffed enough to notice with a multimeter you car would be behaving MUCH worse. And straight swapping afms is much quicker and easier, and definate!

    I was going to say you could come borrow my afm as my car's parked at the moment but then i looked at your location; prob someone closer!

    Yeah, i read that thread about magnets; i think i'm just going to re-connect my SPD signal to my ecu... but thats not your problem.

    Also, check your ecu for error codes! Usually can get you on the right track for electrical gremlins. Remember, some error codes aren't stored till they're checked and cleared, only until ignition is turned off, so make sure you go for a drive and have the problems happening, then check error codes without turning the car off. Check the manual for the correct procedure, i don't have it handy, should be online here somewhere (or old forums or twincam.org) if you don't have it.
    AE93 SX 20V - Next Wakefield track day is 13th of November 2015!
    1:15.47 at Wakefield Park | 1:59.45 at Eastern Creek GP | 1:08.81 at SMP South | 2:04.77 at Phillip Island
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  9. #9
    is damn glad to meet ya. Domestic Engineer andy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 20v problems starting

    thanks.
    ive seen the error code document before. when ever i check it i get a oxy sensor error. i got my mechanic to check the oxy sensor, so he grabbed his "snap on" computer but we couldnt find the right setting for this toyota engine, not one that was even remotely close(not even lexus) because the computer was from the states and it appears they dont use 4 wire oxy sensors there.
    but he hooked it up anyways and it gave us a pulse every 8 seconds... not sure about the voltage though.

    i will check the codes after a spirited drive and see what it comes up.

    also, let me know if your car starts behaving differently with the spd signal hooked up.
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