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Thread: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

  1. #1
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Ok, in the midst of a 3sgte rwd conversion, engine is in situ.
    I need some feedback on the sump I am building. It should hold around 5L up to the cover plate (blue hue)

    1.The red boxes are to be gate baffles (naturally, opening inward and not outward)

    2. White partitions are to direct oil toward side gates under cornering forces and front gate under power. They do not reach all the way to the front of the box shaped base so that the oil may fill all three areas.

    3. Green dots are overflow for the centre pickup sump.

    4. Blue hue is the top cover which covers the entire sump area as shown, leaving a round hole to allow fitting of the pickup and in order that the pickup sump area may refill first. This plate will be folded up 45deg along the sides and front to funnel oil into the pickup area. I intend it to be a perfect fit for the contours of the internal sides of the original sump.

    The shape of the sump externally is not quite finalised, I intend to at least bevel the bottom leading edge to make it look more streamlined.

    I appreciate your feedback.

    Pic 1 and 2, sump.
    1.
    2.

    And, here are some more pics of the build. I manufactured the turbo manifold myself, along with all other custom components. This is a hobby build, not a workshop project.
    I still have to clean up the engine bay etc, but at this stage I'm just interested in getting it running.

    Pic 3, 4 (rwd 3s teasers)
    3.
    4.

    Pic 5 (Boffin wondering what to do next)
    5.

    More pics soon. (I'll try to set up a members ride thread)
    Last edited by af300e; 15-07-2008 at 07:29 AM.

  2. #2
    how much is Too Much Toyota JustenGT8's Avatar
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    I did that in my 18RGT (18Rs suffer woeful oil surge) and it appeared to work well.

    For my RWD 3SGTE and the TTUZ i simplified things and instead of using gates i just had the pickup at the centre of a X so that no matter which way the Gs were sending the oil it had to pass thru the pickup point.... has worked well and a heap simpler than gates.
    Lily Simpson 6.7.2010
    R.I.P.

  3. #3
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Thanks for the input Justen. I quite like the the idea of the gates, especially in conjunction with the angled dividers (as in your UZ setup). I feel the insurance offered by the gates (oil funnels in under forces but cannot escape except through the overflows which are much higher up) is worth the little extra time it will take me to set them up.

    Did you run any weights on the gates? I don't imagine I will need to but it's worth asking.

    Anyone's input is great, the more eyes/brains the better.

  4. #4
    umop apisdn Chief Engine Builder twentyEight's Avatar
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    What made you ditch the Alloy Sump/Steel Pan and use a 2S sump?

    Here is a pic of the Modified 2S Sump (unbaffled) that I was going to use when I was going down the Gen II path... (Pic more for reference of the notch in the rear section...)

    ([][][]II--LT--II[][][])


    Green '77 RA28 Celica - VVTi V8 Goodness...

  5. #5
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    28, I wanted to keep the motor low and the rack kept the motor high. I could have modded the alloy sump, but a 2s one is much easier to weld. (I do have an AC/DC tig now though).

    From the look of max's ta22, the celicas have more vertical room than the sprinter so your situation might have been different in that respect. It's hard to see, but at the back drivers side of mine, the sump is actually indented to accomodate the rack mount.

    Had I had the AC tig then, I might have run with the alloy. 2s bits are cheap enough to keep me happy though.

    There was another reason too, but I can remember what it was. Might have been the original drop sump fouling on the front of the Xmember? I might measure tonight, refresh my memory.
    Last edited by af300e; 24-07-2008 at 10:01 PM.

  6. #6
    umop apisdn Chief Engine Builder twentyEight's Avatar
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Stupid short memory... I remember you mentioning about the rack and trying to lower the moor more now...
    ([][][]II--LT--II[][][])


    Green '77 RA28 Celica - VVTi V8 Goodness...

  7. #7
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    LOL, that's ok. Whilst we are on the topic, I am really happy with the position of the motor now. It sits low and quite far back, perhaps even further back than a 4AGE would on stock mounts.

    I have swapped the gear lever arm/housing for the rearmost one and I actually have to cut 30mm out of the tunnel to accept it! If I include the fact that the stock lever had a dogleg in it which positioned it 30mm behind th shifter socket and the short shifter lever does not, the new stick should still be around 20mm behind the stock lever position.

  8. #8
    how much is Too Much Toyota JustenGT8's Avatar
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Nah i didn't weight the gates and from memory had approx 5mm overlap each side of the 'gate' (talking 15 yrs ago ).....quite likely some design specs in interwebz land that a google search may turn up?
    Lily Simpson 6.7.2010
    R.I.P.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    I've searched high and low and used the themes I've seen in this design. It takes cues from the moroso V8 sumps and the new BMW M3 (I think it was the higher performance version).

    Do you remember roughly what size your gates where? I was thinking journals of around 30x15mm (allows for about 5mm overlap)

  10. #10
    how much is Too Much Toyota JustenGT8's Avatar
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Man it was a while ago very ballpark 80-100mm x 30mm. The 18RG sump was a bit bigger than the 3S.

    On size, you need 5 litres as a minimum. Because the engine in stock config is on an angle it doesn't drain oil back from the head quite as well once vertical in RWD form. Not an issue if you have the right sized sump.
    Lily Simpson 6.7.2010
    R.I.P.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Cool. this sump holds 2.5L in the wings, plus around 3.5 in the centre up to the plate baffle. I might enlarge the gates.........

  12. #12
    Forum Sponsor Conversion King
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    that looks like a Gen3 3S,
    if so my first question is what are you planning on doing with the high pressure feed and return for the oil filter which use to be in the alloy section of the sump?

    you can change over to the gen2 timing cover but im not sure how this re-routes the oil supply (i havn't checked yet).

    this then leads you to problem number 2 which is where do you plan to put the oil filter?

    you could change over to a 5S style oil/water cooler setup on the side and fit a remote oil filter setup due to the limited amount of room you have behind the turbo manifold.

    not trying to deter you but definately trying to make sure you keep these things in mind as they may lead to problems later.

    cheers
    linden
    Quote Originally Posted by WHITCHY
    Prefer someone around the Sydney area but will travel a few hours for a good box!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    Linden,
    I'm running a 5s oil pump and cover plus the 5s oil/water heat exchanger with a remote filter adapter that I made myself due to the size of the purchasable ones. I'm using an off the shelf filter holder.

    The main prob with the gen 3 pump was that it had no pressure relief in it. The 5s pump housing does.

    I spoke to some people who are running the 5s pump on Beams engines (which are effectively a gen 3 block) with success.

    I tell you know, if I wasn't doing all the fab, this thing would owe me big bucks!

    I's also using the 3sgte clutch which dictates removing 10mm from the bell housing (9mm front, 1mm back) and extending the throwout arm pivot ball as well as the throwout bearing slide tube. I also had to make an adapter plate for the starter out of 6mm steel plate in order to move the starter pinion away from the block around 8mm or so. The halfcut had an ORC clutch and flywheel that I wanted to use (saves me $1700 on a beams clutch and flywheel).

    I'm still thankful for for your input Linden. Cheers

  14. #14
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    the 5S pump housing would work but not sure about on a Beams or ST215 engine as they have a 36-2 trigger on the timing belt gear.

    off the shelf remote filter adapters are generally too tall (as you have found out) but MOCAL make a nice slimline unit with the fittings out the side if you ever need another one and cant be arsed building it.

    as far as the clutch is concerned if you havn't started modding everything pivot wise just try to fing a taller throwout bearing or carrier to suit, thats the way i did it anyway.

    i think we only took 8mm off my bellhousing to get the input spline in the correct location but you would have to check stidnam's thread and look for one of Leeroys posts which had the correct measurement from the bellhousing face to the nose of the input shaft.

    the one thing i have found most critical with building sumps is the placement of the pickup, be sure to have it between 10-15mm from the base, this sounds like alot but from my experience is fine and can save your engine if the sump takes a hit in the base whilst driving.

    i would gate the sides moreso than front and back as this is where your going to have surge problems due to the width of the sump and as justin said running some baffles in the shape of an X is one of the best ways to do it.

    the other thing i would recommend is the buy the biggest oil cooler you can find as this can be a life saver thru high G corners and braking as it will act like a large reseviour and stabilize your oil pressure, if you find the oil runs too cold just cover half the cooler.

    when fitting the cooler make sure the return fitting to the engine is at the top, this will reduce the likelyhood of a large air pocket building up in the cooler.

    sorry for getting abit OT but with oiling systems you can never be too carefull.

    cheers
    linden
    Quote Originally Posted by WHITCHY
    Prefer someone around the Sydney area but will travel a few hours for a good box!

  15. #15
    Junior Member Backyard Mechanic
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    Default Re: RWD 3sgte baffled sump

    I agree, too good an oil system is about sufficient.

    Re the pump, I believe there are couple of variants, one has a provision for the hall sensor. I believe this one can be used without the hall sensor but requires the bolt hole be blocked and sealed. Perhaps, the pumps are the same and almost interchangable but come on different versions of the 5s? Not sure.

    Mine does not have this sensor provision as I specifically searched for a car in the wrecker that had a suitable pump, and then bought the pump against the chassis number of that particular car.

    I'll have another look at the baffles, regarding the X system, I imagine the X missing the centre section and this to be where the pickup sits. That sound correct? I know it is somewhat hard to see, but mine does run a similar system to route the oil to the side gates. I'll give it a good simulation (meaning i'll angle it this way and that, fill it whilst watching etc) before I fit it to make sure flow is good and that it works in the way I intend.

    Clutch? well, it's already in. Looks like it will work a treat, fingers crossed
    I measured the positioning of the plate about 5 times to make sure it would be right before I machined the bell housing. More off would have been even better, but this would have been cutting the flanges too fine. As it is the input splines completely pick up the plate when it is hard against the flywheel. It sounds to me as though there is a bit of variation between the series motors and the flywheel dimensions as I really wouldn't have been happy with taking only 8mm off the bell housing - the clutch just wouldn't have been all the way onto the input shaft.

    Re an additional oil cooler, surely if the pump cavitates the whole system, cooler included, will lose pressure?

    Thanks again guys,
    Andrew
    Last edited by af300e; 17-07-2008 at 07:42 PM.

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